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Post by Hulkamaniac on Dec 9, 2013 17:20:36 GMT -5
So Doc has called it a career. Signed a one day deal in Toronto. Happy retirement Roy. Kind of sad really. He's only 36 and just two seasons ago he was runner up for the Cy Young and looked like a sure fire first ballot HOFer. Man, he fell off the face of the baseball planet in a hurry. |
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Post by "The Visionary" Eldniw on Dec 9, 2013 17:46:02 GMT -5
So Doc has called it a career. Signed a one day deal in Toronto. Happy retirement Roy. Kind of sad really. He's only 36 and just two seasons ago he was runner up for the Cy Young and looked like a sure fire first ballot HOFer. Man, he fell off the face of the baseball planet in a hurry. He really did with the injuries in his last 2 years in Philly. But he said the retirement was to avoid any other surgeries that he doesn't NEED but would have to get to pitch how he wants. Can't blame him for that reasoning. |
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Dec 9, 2013 18:00:52 GMT -5
I can't blame him. Only now instead of going to Cooperstown 5 years from now, he'll end up as a footnote like Don Larsen.
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Post by Jean-Ralphio on Dec 9, 2013 19:16:57 GMT -5
Roy Halladay will be in the Hall of Fame, his peak was insane. It might take a little bit, but he is a Hall of Famer.
He went out like he want, instead of trying to hang around. He was a mess last year, which was sad but he went out the way he wanted.
Guy was awesome, Hall of Fame eventually no doubt
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Post by ICW on Dec 9, 2013 19:25:58 GMT -5
Halladay's peak from 2002-2011 was INSANE. As in "you're a first ballot HOF'er" insane.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Dec 9, 2013 20:25:42 GMT -5
Halladay finishes with 203 W's, 3.36 ERA, ~2100 ks and a pair of Cy Youngs as well as a perfect game and a no-no. Not really a HOF career IMO. His wins put him 106 on the list tied with Lew Burdette and a couple of pre-Modern era guys. He's just below Orel Hershiser and just ahead of Tim Wakefield neither of whom are HOFers. If he makes it in, he'd have the lowest win total of any HOFer not elected by the Veteran's committee (who elects pretty much anyone let's be honest here). Eckersley has less wins than him, but Eck went in for his relief pitching skills more than anything. Even Smoltz who spent several years as a closer has more wins than Halladay.
If you want to go off of ERA, then he ranks 345th which is very unimpressive. The only people who have higher ERAs and are either in the HOF or will be are Eckersley and Glavine. Glavine has 305 wins though which is kind of an instant lock right there. His strikeouts put him 60th on the all time list which isn't terribly impressive either. Tim Wakefield and AJ Burnett (neither of them HOFers) have more.
I guess I just don't see his career numbers as being all that impressive. If he had kept on at that pace for the past two years and we were looking at 250-260 wins and 2600-2700 Ks and another Cy Young or two, then yes, but we're not. IF he gets in, he's one of the guys the veterans committee puts in.
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Post by Chip on Dec 9, 2013 20:48:28 GMT -5
2 Cy Youngs
Perfect Game
No-No
= Hall of Fame
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Post by Jean-Ralphio on Dec 9, 2013 20:57:58 GMT -5
Hulk, let me help you out a little bit, and I hope people going forward grab onto this approach, especially Hall of Fame voters ready? WINS DONT  ING MATTER You ask yourself "Was Halladay one of the best pitchers in teh game when he pitched" ABSOLUTELY. He was the best for a few years and dominated. He deserves the HOF compared to guys like Jack Morris who stuck around and was just good for 20 years, as opposed to Halladay who destroyed an entire decade. |
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Dec 9, 2013 20:58:09 GMT -5
Bret Saberhagen has a pair of Cy Youngs and a no-no. Doesn't have the perfect game. He's obviously not a HOFer though. If Saberhagen had thrown a perfect game would you put him Cooperstown?
To me you've got the stats that make you a lock for the HOF - 300 Ws, 3,000k, ERA close to 3.00. You have those, you're a lock. It's why guys like Glavine and Maddux are first ballot guys. They've got the 300 Ws. Anyone who doesn't have those numbers you have to look at how close they are to those numbers. So you have guys with 290 wins. Yes. Put 'em in. 2700 Ks? Yes. Put them in. But at some point you get far enough away from those locks that a guy just doesn't have the numbers. 200 W's? No. 2,000 K's? No. The game is full of guys who put up numbers similar to Halladay's but aren't HOFers unless the Veteran's committee decides they are.
Edit: Johann Santana has also won a pair of Cy Youngs and thrown a no-no. Also, not a HOFer.
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dakis
Superstar
Joined on: Nov 27, 2012 12:10:01 GMT -5
Posts: 760
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Post by dakis on Dec 9, 2013 21:16:49 GMT -5
Hulk, let me help you out a little bit, and I hope people going forward grab onto this approach, especially Hall of Fame voters ready? WINS DONT ING MATTER You ask yourself "Was Halladay one of the best pitchers in teh game when he pitched" ABSOLUTELY. He was the best for a few years and dominated. He deserves the HOF compared to guys like Jack Morris who stuck around and was just good for 20 years, as opposed to Halladay who destroyed an entire decade. He's right. Another thing with pitchers is that the game has changed so much than we will never even sniff a 300 game winner. When starters are going 6-7 innings and the bullpen blows the games for them. Another thing is the pitcher has to dominate while he played. Halladay embarrassed MLB hitting for at least 13 years. He was on a continuous string if horrible Toronto blue jays teams and he still has 100 more victories than losses. He may not be a first ballot hall of famer but he makes it. |
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Post by Jean-Ralphio on Dec 9, 2013 22:03:16 GMT -5
Johan Santana is gonna be in contention when he gets eligible, he had a crazy peak too.
Hulk, I never understand you so theres no need to debate this.
Saberhagen..he had 3 great years one of those years he only had 24 starts, and only years he got CY votes a lot of good to very good years. He only led the league in anything in the years he won the CY.
Halladay finished in the top 5 of the Cy Young 7 times, led the league in innings 4 years, WHIP the year he didnt win a CY, SO/B 5 times, complete games 6 times
Big difference
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Post by Chip on Dec 9, 2013 22:10:32 GMT -5
i dont think anyone is saying Halladay is a first ballot lock guaranteed HOFer.....but he absolutely should get in based on the fact that he was legitimately the best pitcher in baseball for a number of years and that he has those accolades (no-no's, perfect game, etc.)
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Post by ICW on Dec 10, 2013 2:09:32 GMT -5
Using ERA and wins to determine a pitcher's value is so LOL NO.
Come on, Hulk.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Dec 10, 2013 6:39:22 GMT -5
Hulk, let me help you out a little bit, and I hope people going forward grab onto this approach, especially Hall of Fame voters ready? WINS DONT ING MATTER You ask yourself "Was Halladay one of the best pitchers in teh game when he pitched" ABSOLUTELY. He was the best for a few years and dominated. He deserves the HOF compared to guys like Jack Morris who stuck around and was just good for 20 years, as opposed to Halladay who destroyed an entire decade. Your criteria and mine differ so much it's ridiculous. Your criteria is "Was this guy good for a period of time?" Mine is, "Was this guy an elite guy for his career?' If Johan Santana and his 139 Wins gets any HOF consideration at all, it's a joke. Not that the HOF isn't already kind of a joke with the Veteran's committee putting in pretty much anyone, but seriously, have you looked at Santana's numbers? Why anyone would consider voting for him is beyond me. If you start putting guys in based on what they did at their peak and not what they did over their careers, then Dale Murphy is a freaking lock. The HOF isn't there to reward guys who peaked and then fell apart. It's to recognize a guy who had a career that puts him among the best to ever play the game. You reward the career, not the peak years. |
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Post by ICW on Dec 10, 2013 11:12:47 GMT -5
So should Sandy Koufax and his 167 career wins be considered a "joke?" Pedro Martinez has 219 career wins, will it be a joke if of the greatest pitchers of all time gets inducted because he has 219 wins?
Judging a pitcher based on wins and ERA is outdated and, frankly, just so ineffective. Especially wins, which has become an incredibly meaningless stat.
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Deleted
Joined on: Nov 17, 2024 5:40:16 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2013 14:07:22 GMT -5
Mark Prior announced his retirement.
Whatta shame his injuries turned out to be, those years looked promising where he and Wood looked to be the next big things for the Cubs.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Dec 10, 2013 16:32:16 GMT -5
So should Sandy Koufax and his 167 career wins be considered a "joke?" Pedro Martinez has 219 career wins, will it be a joke if of the greatest pitchers of all time gets inducted because he has 219 wins? Judging a pitcher based on wins and ERA is outdated and, frankly, just so ineffective. Especially wins, which has become an incredibly meaningless stat. Comparing Koufax and Halladay really isn't fair. Koufax was so much better than Halladay. His career was shorter, but he won 3 Cy Youngs, threw four no-no's and a perfect game. He won 25+ games 3 of the last 4 seasons and led the league in ERA the last 5 years of his career. Koufax also finished with more Ks than Halladay and had a lower ERA to boot. Koufax won the Triple Crown three times. Halladay led the league in Wins twice. That's as close as he got. Koufax is a much, much better pitcher. Pedro has an ERA under 3 and 3,000 strikeouts. Everyone with 3,000 strikeouts or more is in the HOF with the exception of Clemens ('roids) and Randy Johnson (not eligible 'til next year when he's a sure lock). Add in his 3 Cy Youngs and Triple Crown and Pedro is a lock. |
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Post by Nivro™ on Dec 10, 2013 21:16:08 GMT -5
Doc never failed a test for PED's and was one of the most dominate pitchers in an era that was dominated by hitters essentially were all juiced up....for that, I give him the Hall of Fame.
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jeffro2000
Main Eventer
Joined on: May 16, 2011 14:23:29 GMT -5
Posts: 1,858
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Post by jeffro2000 on Dec 10, 2013 21:35:29 GMT -5
Halladay was the most dominant pitcher in the game for a period of years, and I think he will get in at some point. His stats may not back it up in traditional terms, but he had a great career.
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Post by "The Visionary" Eldniw on Dec 10, 2013 23:52:29 GMT -5
8x All Star
2x Cy Young winner
AL Wins Champion in 2003
NL Wins Champion in 2010
Perfect Game
Postseason No Hitter [1 of only 2 in history. In his first ever postseason game, no less.]
Nearly 2 to 1 W-L [203-105]
3.38 career ERA
2,117 Ks
That may not be first ballot but I'll be damned if that isn't Hall Of Fame worthy. And, the man that many regard as the best pitcher ever - Nolan Ryan - never threw a perfect game and never won the Cy Young. Let that sink in too, before saying Doc isn't a HOF pitcher.
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