HeelPiper
Superstar
Joined on: Nov 11, 2019 17:04:10 GMT -5
Posts: 667
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Post by HeelPiper on Aug 7, 2024 16:33:55 GMT -5
I've been rewatching a lot of Ruthless Agression WWE stuff recently, and it blows my mind how many absolute stinkers Triple H had during the stretch of 2002-2009. How did this guy keep getting the title with a track record this poor?
In 2000-2001 the guy peaked and was a legit world beater, he was really something to behold bell to bell, especially in the blood brawls. The quad injury zapped his abilities though, and outside of some amazing HBK carry jobs, he was abysmal.
An incomplete list of matches that were absolute stinkers
WM19 vs Booker T
Bad Blood 2004 HIAC with Michaels
Unforgiven 2004 vs Orton
No Mercy 2002 vs Kane (all time worst angle)
Unforgiven 2002 vs RVD
Armageddon 2002 vs HBK
Royal Rumble and No Way Out 2003 vs Scott Steiner
Bad Blood 2003 vs Kevin Nash
Unforgiven, Survivor Series, and Armageddon 2003 vs Goldberg (Kane)
This as far as I'll go, I'll wrap up by mentioning how bad his 2009 Wrestlemania match with Orton was. Putrid.
How did this guy stay on top with a track record this poor? This is the all time #1 worst resume for a world champion.
A quick look at guys like Race, Bockwinkel, and Flair shows how a heel world champion is supposed to elevate other wrestlers, and their matches were really special.
Thoughts on HHH's working ability, or lack thereof?
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Post by ASR (therockisback) on Aug 7, 2024 16:46:04 GMT -5
I feel he was the biggest star or at least one of em, so it all made sense looking back.
I'd still say that it would have been nice to have other guys in the spotlight tho. I'd have em drop the belt & then win it back anyways.
RVD,Booker, Nash, Kane, Steiner etc could have been World Champ for a month or two/three at most. Jericho as well. Hollywood Rock.
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Post by tmnt316 on Aug 7, 2024 16:46:38 GMT -5
Feels like a post from 2003.
His haters really exaggerate how "bad" he supposedly was as a wrestler.
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Post by ASR (therockisback) on Aug 7, 2024 16:56:05 GMT -5
Feels like a post from 2003. His haters really exaggerate how "bad" he supposedly was as a wrestler. A lot of exaggerated stuff tbh. Looking back I enjoy it more & more lol. |
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Aug 7, 2024 18:02:10 GMT -5
It wasn't that Triple H was having bad matches at the time, it's more so that on these same PPV events at times you had Angle vs. Benoit, Angle/Benoit vs. Edge/Mysterio, Edge vs. Guerrero, Mysterio vs. Angle, Angle vs. Edge, I mean, in 2002 and 2003 Smackdown had Raw beat in the match department.
Triple H did have a great match with HBK on Raw in late Dec. 2003 and at the Royal Rumble in 2004
Triple H did have great matches with Benoit for the World Title in 2004
Triple H had a great hell in a cell match with Nash at Bad Blood in 2003
Triple H had great matches with Batista in that trilogy in 2005
So I wouldn't say he constantly had bad stuff in those years.
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HeelPiper
Superstar
Joined on: Nov 11, 2019 17:04:10 GMT -5
Posts: 667
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Post by HeelPiper on Aug 7, 2024 18:02:20 GMT -5
Feels like a post from 2003. His haters really exaggerate how "bad" he supposedly was as a wrestler. It's relative to how he was booked. I'm not picking on a mid carder that was poor in the ring, this guy was booked on top for a decade. He owns more below even average PPV matches that absolutely anybody I could name. His workrate for his spot on the card was piss poor in comparison to both his peers, and predecessors. He was Ric Flair, if Flair's average aggregated performance was 2-3* How is that ok? Kurt Angle in comparison was not only more charismatic, but his worst matches were still damn solid. |
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HeelPiper
Superstar
Joined on: Nov 11, 2019 17:04:10 GMT -5
Posts: 667
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Post by HeelPiper on Aug 7, 2024 18:06:33 GMT -5
It wasn't that Triple H was having bad matches at the time, it's more so that on these same PPV events at times you had Angle vs. Benoit, Angle/Benoit vs. Edge/Mysterio, Edge vs. Guerrero, Mysterio vs. Angle, Angle vs. Edge, I mean, in 2002 and 2003 Smackdown had Raw beat in the match department. Triple H did have a great match with HBK on Raw in late Dec. 2003 and at the Royal Rumble in 2004 Triple H did have great matches with Benoit for the World Title in 2004 Triple H had a great hell in a cell match with Nash at Bad Blood in 2003 Triple H had great matches with Batista in that trilogy in 2005 So I wouldn't say he constantly had bad stuff in those years. Not constantly, because I enjoyed most of the same matches you did, especially that Batista series, and the Ric Flair Raw match. It's just that when you add up the really bad or even just mediocre matches, it's a list longer than almost any top guy in the modern era. Not sure on you stay on top after duds like that. |
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Post by hbkjason on Aug 8, 2024 1:20:48 GMT -5
I'm a huge Triple H fan and have always felt he had way more good than bad matches. His stuff with Kevin Nash in 2003 is a real favorite of mine, I have always felt it was a missed opportunity not to put the title on Nash, even if it was just from one PPV to the next.
His stuff with Batista is also fantastic, those two had great chemistry.
I can see where you are coming from though, I think the problem may be the volume of work that he had. He was such a focal point of the show for long periods of time, I can see why some may have lost interest and gotten bored with his work. For me personally, I would say that I have enjoyed like 90 percent of Triple H's career and he would easily be in my top 10 of all time.
Although, his WrestleMania main event with Randy Orton sucked big time, but I put a huge part of that on Randy Orton too!
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Old Zeke
Main Eventer
'Fraid old Zeke, he rides up here with me. Can't trust a pig with watermelons, you know.
Joined on: Jun 24, 2019 13:46:50 GMT -5
Posts: 3,354
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Post by Old Zeke on Aug 8, 2024 1:23:22 GMT -5
I'm going to counter that with some of the good main events he had during this period:
Survivor Series 2002 - Elimination Chamber
Armageddon 2002 - vs HBK (Don't see how you can hate on this one, but each to their own)
Judgment Day 2003 - vs Nash
Insurrextion 2003 - vs Nash
Bad Blood 2003 - vs Nash
Royal Rumble 2004 - vs HBK
WrestleMania XX - vs HBK vs Benoit
Backlash 2004 - vs HBK vs Benoit
New Year's Revolution - Elimination Chamber
Royal Rumble 2005 - vs Orton
WrestleMania 21 - vs Batista
Backlash 2005 - vs Batista
Vengeance 2005 - vs Batista
Royal Rumble 2006 - Royal Rumble match (He was in the majority of this, so I'm counting it)
WrestleMania 22 - vs John Cena
Backlash 2006 - vs Edge vs John Cena
I stopped watching WWE for a time after the Benoit incident, so I can't comment on anything really between 2007 and 2010.
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Post by PJ on Aug 8, 2024 14:39:39 GMT -5
I enjoyed pretty much all those matches except for the ones with Scott Steiner. But Steiner with the foot injury he had then was a shell of what he was prior to coming back to the WWE. Can’t blame that on Triple H or Steiner really. Triple H is always in my “Top 5” All-Time wrestlers at 4 or 5 depending on my mood of the day.
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Old Zeke
Main Eventer
'Fraid old Zeke, he rides up here with me. Can't trust a pig with watermelons, you know.
Joined on: Jun 24, 2019 13:46:50 GMT -5
Posts: 3,354
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Post by Old Zeke on Aug 8, 2024 16:30:41 GMT -5
I enjoyed pretty much all those matches except for the ones with Scott Steiner. But Steiner with the foot injury he had then was a shell of what he was prior to coming back to the WWE. Can’t blame that on Triple H or Steiner really. Triple H is always in my “Top 5” All-Time wrestlers at 4 or 5 depending on my mood of the day. When Steiner went into detail about that on the A&E documentary, I was astounded. Taped up a completely paralysed foot and went out there and wrestled - crazy! What could've been if he was 100% |
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Post by JokerFC on Aug 8, 2024 19:58:27 GMT -5
it was 50/50 from HHH in that period. he had 2 stinkers vs Jericho too but I enjoyed some of the ones that are listed as bad.
As for Steiner? That booking is 100% on Vince, Steph and whoever else was involved in the layout of those matches. If Vince could have assessed things objectively he would have seen that not only was Steiner in absolutely no shape to perform? HHH was bloated, over loaded with muscle and unable to carry him.
RR03 should have been a short out of control brawl that made Steiner look like a monster. Evolution has to save HHH and he gets the fright of his life...have Orton and Flair bump like a pinball for Steiner. Have HHH play the coward heel running for his life whilst his crew gets annihilated. Crowd would have ate it up and the stage would have been set much better for NWO in Feb.
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Post by TKO Propagandist on Aug 10, 2024 2:43:23 GMT -5
He had a bad physique from 04-06
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Post by K5 on Aug 11, 2024 0:16:46 GMT -5
he could sell a feud really well and had proven that, and let’s not ignore that he’s clearly not a bad politician
could’ve been worse. I’d take HHH over Cena or JBL
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Post by theoutlaw1999 on Aug 11, 2024 17:07:58 GMT -5
He had a bad physique from 04-06 He was plagued with injuries around that period and couldn't work out the same. His quad tear in 07 gave him the chance to heal up and he came back like a beast. |
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Post by CM Tusk on Aug 11, 2024 17:59:48 GMT -5
His job was to be a great heel and I think he did it very well. Yeah Booker should have beat him at Wrestlemania but the rest of his reign of terror worked well. For as many bad matches as he had, he had a lot of really good ones and some really good feuds too.
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Post by ASR (therockisback) on Aug 11, 2024 21:36:45 GMT -5
HHH vs Orton LMS in 07 was a classic
HHH vs Edge in 08 was good
HHH vs Jeff in 08 was also good
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Post by Kill Em' All on Aug 11, 2024 22:31:38 GMT -5
We got as good as we got bad.
Did we need Katie Vick, Booker blunder, orton wasn’t ready for world title run but did we need the belt back on HHH, few misses with HBK in matches, Goldberg not going over at SS, and WWE dropping the belt on orton-HHH feud in 09
We still got WM XX main event, Batista ascending to the top, a feud with Orton in 2009 that they got right story wise, two very very good matches with HBK, some solid work in solo feuds with Beniot, and decent story out of Cena.
A lot of people think HHH redeemed himself in his 08 title run. Working a good small feud with edge and the Hardy saga. I think HHH got back into really good shape around this time and picked up his work rate to something closer to 2000-2001 pace.
I’m a HHH mark and I have power of looking back in hindsight.
The Steiner matches would be booked similar to lesnar Goldberg formula in world where this feud still happens
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No Booker match or Booker goes over to drop it back in early summer/late spring.
Alternative opponent is HBK WM XIX. HHH sells up his chamber injury as HBK takes the world on and the spot light. (We force Michaels at gun point to hold the title till mania) Michaels is fighting champion and keeping up with stars of the time as HHH in lust, misery, hate sits on sidelines. He tries to derail Shawn at every corner sabotaging matches, trying to pay off rookie heels to hurt Shawn for spot on a career enriching “”mentorship” (evolution)
Shawn has this dream match program with RVD based on they both were pioneering in there companies in 90s and it’s match we thought we’d never see going into Rumble along with HHH try to instigate conflict between them
Michaels goes over and runs progress at NWO 03 maybe with Hollywood Rock
HHH is cleared and looks to take what is his back and settle this blood feud blah blah. I thought of either ladder match connecting Shawn to WM X or I quit match. Where HHH in high drama wins. And Shawn goes into Jericho program and vows revenge and redemption which gets us still to the same RR04-WM XX story,
Goldberg didn’t really hit the high note in 2003. So he goes over at SS and is totally booked different. Or a bat-sh*T Kane wins in the chamber at SS after being unmasked.
Maybe orton drops the title to someone else like Shawn Michaels, back to Beniot or even Edge. Hhh jealousy is noted and his hatred of not seeing himself on top manifests. He sees this rookie orton who’s on top of the world fumbling the title as a disrespect, orton whoever he loses to puts on a massive fight and resilient performance but he loses and is humbled. You can trail into Orton-HHH feud and HHH still getting the belt in late 04 early 05 for Batista or something.
Build up to orton and hhh at WM 25 was excellent just this match needed to be some over booked street fight and orton goes over
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TheXtremisT
Main Eventer
10 Year Member
This is the way
Joined on: May 3, 2008 8:03:15 GMT -5
Posts: 3,951
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Post by TheXtremisT on Aug 21, 2024 15:57:23 GMT -5
He had a bad physique from 04-06 He was plagued with injuries around that period and couldn't work out the same. His quad tear in 07 gave him the chance to heal up and he came back like a beast. The word moreso was that he was off the juice/HGH etc as he was getting Steph knocked up at the time. |
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Post by Scott! on Aug 23, 2024 13:00:58 GMT -5
I missed out on a lot of 2007-2009, so I can't comment on that. In all fairness I feel like the good outweighed the bad. Yes Katie Vick and the whole Steiner feud sucked, I won't deny that and I don't think anyone else would either but he had a lot of good stuff in those few years. His 2004 was solid, great match at Rumble with Shawn and the Hell in a Cell match was a belter too and if it wasn't for the fact it's a match involving Chris Benoit, Wrestlemania 20's Triple Threat would be talked about as one of the greatest main event's in WWE history.
He carried Goldberg to a couple okay matches that I wouldn't blame on him, and his whole feud with Kevin Nash is a lot better than you probably remember it being and watching it back it's actually really good.
I think yes he gets a lot of stick for how he was pushed to the tope of the card for years, but a lot of the matches and storylines were good stuff, for the most part.
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