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Post by LA Times on Oct 20, 2023 15:37:57 GMT -5
Since win? Only people who grew up during his run think that, everyone else does not. Im 40, never was a Cena fan...however if you have a mount rushmore of WWF/E Champions or WWF/E "faces"....You gotta put him there along with Sammartino, Hogan & Austin. The hardest thing for wrestling fans to do is to look at things objectively. John Cena is also quite possibly the biggest merchandise seller in wrestling history. That definitely has to cement his place on there.
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Post by MKSavage on Oct 20, 2023 19:21:19 GMT -5
Since win? Only people who grew up during his run think that, everyone else does not. Im 40, never was a Cena fan...however if you have a mount rushmore of WWF/E Champions or WWF/E "faces"....You gotta put him there along with Sammartino, Hogan & Austin. The hardest thing for wrestling fans to do is to look at things objectively. I just can't, not for the GOAT debate or Mount Rushmore. The guy is one of the reasons I stopped watching wrestling. I know he was their top guy for a very long time, but most of it seemed forced. I agree with the other three on your list. The Rock or Taker could take the 4th spot on the list.
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332 Days
Oct 20, 2023 20:08:09 GMT -5
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Post by The American Daydream on Oct 20, 2023 20:08:09 GMT -5
I don't think title defenses or a lack thereof are going to matter too much in the future. Same way if old man Cena were to beat Flairs 16 title reign record. He would be considered one of, if not the greatest world champion just off that stat alone. People bring up Bruno and Hogan as guys who defended the most but I've never cared as they were before my time. Happens with all sorts of sports (entertainment). Old people say Joe Montana, Babe Ruth, Larry Bird or Bill Russell was the best in their field but younger people will bring up Favre, Manning, McGuire, Sosa, Jordan, LeBron and so on for their respective sports. The goat conversation will always change for casuals. That being said there will always be die hards like some of the older guys on here (for each sport) that know of everything that proceeded the current generation.
Romans not in my top ten, I was just BSing to bring in more comments but he may make it into the top 10 eventually. If not by my generation then by the one that comes after I.E. people who are 9-13 now. Never know.
If I had to make a real top 10 it would be nearly impossible as many have specific lanes they excell in. I could do one for pure ring work, promo ability, character or all-arounders. Idk how people narrow it down so easily. Obviously Bruno, Hogan, Rock and Austin have to be there and even then some will choose one between Rock/Austin. Everything else seems like speculation and perspective though. Hell Vince could go on there for turning into wrestling what it is today.
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332 Days
Oct 21, 2023 10:38:49 GMT -5
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Post by Next Man’s Knowing Rock on Oct 21, 2023 10:38:49 GMT -5
he's another guy with a severely tainted legacy of being forced over the people, even now. due to that, he can never really be in contention for 'greatest' of anything. cena also suffers from this. that's mostly wwe's fault and not the talent's though. Cena is wildly considered by most one of the greatest of all time. People still complaining about “lol Cena wins” are in the minority. Anyone saying a fighter can’t be one of the greats because they won too many fights is hilarious, really. It’s like saying Undertaker’s WrestleMania career is worse than Tito Santana’s.
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Post by BoJack Hogan on Oct 21, 2023 19:02:34 GMT -5
It’s easy to hold a title for 4 years if you never wrestle and barely even appear. Hogan actually defended it continuously during his 4 year reign, as did Pedro, Bruno, Backlund, and all of the other legends who’s reign he’s supposedly beaten.
I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again: Roman didn’t do any of this alone, he had his entire family, Paul Heyman, and some of the greats of the modern era (and some all-time greats too) helping him keep this afloat while he stays home and collects a paycheck. Without all of the supporting characters this reign wouldn’t have been anywhere near this long. This supposed ‘record-breaking title reign’ is a total farce, and if you want to get really technical about it Kevin Owens basically beat him in the Last Man Standing match. That finish featured the longest ten count in the history of counting. Roman was down for at least two minutes because Heyman couldn’t get the cuffs unlocked.
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Thunder Chunky
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Post by Thunder Chunky on Oct 21, 2023 21:08:49 GMT -5
There's this idea that newer guys can't be better than older guys. They can, older wrestling fans just can't handle it.
It's a fake sport and the only things you can measure objectively are merchandise sales and drawing power. Alot of people say HBK is the GOAT and he was one of the lowest drawing champions of all time.
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Post by MKSavage on Oct 21, 2023 21:22:10 GMT -5
There's this idea that newer guys can't be better than older guys. They can, older wrestling fans just can't handle it.
It's a fake sport and the only things you can measure objectively are merchandise sales and drawing power. Alot of people say HBK is the GOAT and he was one of the lowest drawing champions of all time. That goes the other way, too. A lot of modern fans who weren't alive for previous eras think that only today's stars are great, and the older stars can't hold a candle to them. They can, newer fans just can't handle it...
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Thunder Chunky
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Post by Thunder Chunky on Oct 21, 2023 21:30:07 GMT -5
There's this idea that newer guys can't be better than older guys. They can, older wrestling fans just can't handle it.
It's a fake sport and the only things you can measure objectively are merchandise sales and drawing power. Alot of people say HBK is the GOAT and he was one of the lowest drawing champions of all time. That goes the other way, too. A lot of modern fans who weren't alive for previous eras think that only today's stars are great, and the older stars can't hold a candle to them. They can, newer fans just can't handle it... I think older fans have a harder time coming to terms with it than younger fans. Young fans still love Austin and the Rock. You can't say the same about older fans. Just look in this thread, people are saying Reigns and Cena can't be the GOAT. Why can't they be? There's no objective reason why they can't be, everything else is subjective.
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Post by MKSavage on Oct 21, 2023 21:48:19 GMT -5
That goes the other way, too. A lot of modern fans who weren't alive for previous eras think that only today's stars are great, and the older stars can't hold a candle to them. They can, newer fans just can't handle it... I think older fans have a harder time coming to terms with it than younger fans. Young fans still love Austin and the Rock. You can't say the same about older fans. Just look in this thread, people are saying Reigns and Cena can't be the GOAT. Why can't they be? There's no objective reason why they can't be, everything else is subjective. And how many younger fans are saying Hogan, Austin and Bruno can be the GOAT. You can't go by just this board, it's not indicative of all wrestling fans. And some of the posts above have given their reasons why Cena and Reigns can't be the GOAT, but you're right, it is all subjective.
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Thunder Chunky
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Post by Thunder Chunky on Oct 21, 2023 22:00:44 GMT -5
I think older fans have a harder time coming to terms with it than younger fans. Young fans still love Austin and the Rock. You can't say the same about older fans. Just look in this thread, people are saying Reigns and Cena can't be the GOAT. Why can't they be? There's no objective reason why they can't be, everything else is subjective. And how many younger fans are saying Hogan, Austin and Bruno can be the GOAT. You can't go by just this board, it's not indicative of all wrestling fans. And some of the posts above have given their reasons why Cena and Reigns can't be the GOAT, but you're right, it is all subjective. I hear alot of younger fans say Austin, not so much Bruno or Hogan. How many NBA fans do you hear say Wilt or Bill Russell is the GOAT?
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Post by MKSavage on Oct 21, 2023 23:07:56 GMT -5
And how many younger fans are saying Hogan, Austin and Bruno can be the GOAT. You can't go by just this board, it's not indicative of all wrestling fans. And some of the posts above have given their reasons why Cena and Reigns can't be the GOAT, but you're right, it is all subjective. I hear alot of younger fans say Austin, not so much Bruno or Hogan. How many NBA fans do you hear say Wilt or Bill Russell is the GOAT?Not many. Which is kind of my point, younger fans do the same thing.
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Thunder Chunky
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Post by Thunder Chunky on Oct 21, 2023 23:22:50 GMT -5
I hear alot of younger fans say Austin, not so much Bruno or Hogan. How many NBA fans do you hear say Wilt or Bill Russell is the GOAT?Not many. Which is kind of my point, younger fans do the same thing. And that goes both ways. You've admitted to not watching Cena, so how can you say he isn't the GOAT?
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Post by k5 on Oct 21, 2023 23:38:23 GMT -5
That goes the other way, too. A lot of modern fans who weren't alive for previous eras think that only today's stars are great, and the older stars can't hold a candle to them. They can, newer fans just can't handle it... I think older fans have a harder time coming to terms with it than younger fans. Young fans still love Austin and the Rock. You can't say the same about older fans. Just look in this thread, people are saying Reigns and Cena can't be the GOAT. Why can't they be? There's no objective reason why they can't be, everything else is subjective. the same reason that daniel bryan's organic rise can be considered brilliant is the same reason roman and cena's manufactured runs could never be. it's like verne gagne in awa. you can book yourself as going over as much as you want but that doesn't qualify you as to be considered the greatest.
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Thunder Chunky
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Post by Thunder Chunky on Oct 22, 2023 1:04:22 GMT -5
I think older fans have a harder time coming to terms with it than younger fans. Young fans still love Austin and the Rock. You can't say the same about older fans. Just look in this thread, people are saying Reigns and Cena can't be the GOAT. Why can't they be? There's no objective reason why they can't be, everything else is subjective. the same reason that daniel bryan's organic rise can be considered brilliant is the same reason roman and cena's manufactured runs could never be. it's like verne gagne in awa. you can book yourself as going over as much as you want but that doesn't qualify you as to be considered the greatest. Cena's rise was organic too. He was over as at first, and then starting getting boos a few months into his run as the top guy. Cena wasn't booking himself to be the greatest, the same guy that was booking Bryan was.
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Biff Slamkovich™
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Post by Biff Slamkovich™ on Oct 22, 2023 2:28:27 GMT -5
Serious question...
What does a long title reign matter when you barely defend your title? Roman is a as corporate of a champion as there ever was. He's strongly marketed and I think that's created this illusion that he's one of the GOATs.
I used to rag on Cena for being too kiddie and for being the perfect corporate marketing tool, but at least he defended his title and had numerous memorable matches.
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Post by MKSavage on Oct 22, 2023 2:31:56 GMT -5
Not many. Which is kind of my point, younger fans do the same thing. And that goes both ways. You've admitted to not watching Cena, so how can you say he isn't the GOAT? Which was my original point. Glad to see you agree with me... And I have watched Cena. I quit watching for a few years - in the early/mid 2000s - but I always come back and watch from time to time. Granted, I haven't seen everything he's ever done, but I have seen plenty (regretfully...), at least enough to judge his in-ring ability, mic work, crowd responses, etc. People were starting to tire of his act two years into his run; he's lucky Vince really liked him and that there wasn't any competition.
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Post by k5 on Oct 22, 2023 3:06:36 GMT -5
the same reason that daniel bryan's organic rise can be considered brilliant is the same reason roman and cena's manufactured runs could never be. it's like verne gagne in awa. you can book yourself as going over as much as you want but that doesn't qualify you as to be considered the greatest. Cena's rise was organic too. He was over as at first, and then starting getting boos a few months into his run as the top guy. Cena wasn't booking himself to be the greatest, the same guy that was booking Bryan was. they literally tried to bury bryan and he rose DESPITE the booking. and pls don't suggest that was intentional on their part cena was the first 'face' of a company to be booed completely out of the building - repeatedly. reigns being the second.
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Oct 22, 2023 11:21:54 GMT -5
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Post by The American Daydream on Oct 22, 2023 11:21:54 GMT -5
People keep bringing up title defenses like they matter in the Grand scheme. Flair is one of the guys people consider a GOAT. Some see 16 and say wow that's a legend, others see it as having to lose the belt 15 times to get there. Its all about perspective and preference bc in 10 years nobody but the people who are currently watching (who will be older fans by then) are going to gaf about how many times "so and so" defended their belt. The same way Im 30 and don't care in the least how many times Bruno, Pedro or Hogan defended their titles. I put Bruno on the top 10 for the LENGTH of his reign. That's all. Nothing more and nothing less. I put Hogan on the top 10 bc he's Hogan. He was the first household name/mega star outside of somebody like Andre who was a wonder to behold just in size and stature no matter where in the world he went. He also carried wrestling to global heights. I have never looked at a superstar and thought to myself "ah he would make my top 10 but he didn't defend his title that much so can't do it" 😆 Austin only won it 6 times but managed to be one of, if not the most popular superstar of all time.
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Post by k5 on Oct 22, 2023 11:47:33 GMT -5
People keep bringing up title defenses like they matter in the Grand scheme. Flair is one of the guys people consider a GOAT. Some see 16 and say wow that's a legend, others see it as having to lose the belt 15 times to get there. Its all about perspective and preference bc in 10 years nobody but the people who are currently watching (who will be older fans by then) are going to gaf about how many times "so and so" defended their belt. The same way Im 30 and don't care in the least how many times Bruno, Pedro or Hogan defended their titles. I put Bruno on the top 10 for the LENGTH of his reign. That's all. Nothing more and nothing less. I put Hogan on the top 10 bc he's Hogan. He was the first household name/mega star outside of somebody like Andre who was a wonder to behold just in size and stature no matter where in the world he went. He also carried wrestling to global heights. I have never looked at a superstar and thought to myself "ah he would make my top 10 but he didn't defend his title that much so can't do it" 😆 Austin only won it 6 times but managed to be one of, if not the most popular superstar of all time. you're openly admitting you're ignorant to the past yet still seem to think your opinion is credible. just doesn't work like that brotha. i'm like three years older than you, i wouldn't consider myself that much older? yet i know that your opinion doesn't have much depth on this. which is essentially the case with the majority of people who would try to put cena or reigns in goat positions. fun topic idea nonetheless.
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Thunder Chunky
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Post by Thunder Chunky on Oct 22, 2023 12:20:14 GMT -5
Cena's rise was organic too. He was over as at first, and then starting getting boos a few months into his run as the top guy. Cena wasn't booking himself to be the greatest, the same guy that was booking Bryan was. they literally tried to bury bryan and he rose DESPITE the booking. and pls don't suggest that was intentional on their part cena was the first 'face' of a company to be booed completely out of the building - repeatedly. reigns being the second. It doesn't matter if they didn't intend to push Bryan the way they did. He still ended up being booked well. People were completely tired of Hogan by the end of his first run in WWE. Go watch him when he goes back to eliminate Sid in the Royal Rumble. People were sick of him.
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