azraelms
Main Eventer
Joined on: Jun 26, 2010 8:41:07 GMT -5
Posts: 2,000
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Post by azraelms on Mar 18, 2021 9:06:37 GMT -5
I am really hoping that the HOF announcements are signed to Legends deals and we can get figures of them, especially today's announcement. This would certainly be an important figure for the NWO figure group.
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Post by WCWThunderRosa on Mar 18, 2021 10:03:26 GMT -5
We honestly need a FAQ here so we don’t have to keep having these kind of threads
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Post by qdogg on Mar 18, 2021 11:39:02 GMT -5
IT would be really cool if they could give us 3 or 4 packs of completely new faces and kill a lot of birds with one stone. I would be fine with limited or no accessories if we. could get some new guys.
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Post by Crossfit Jesus on Mar 18, 2021 13:07:15 GMT -5
A Giant Gonzalez elite would be rad
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Post by newgenandy on Mar 18, 2021 13:44:49 GMT -5
A Giant Gonzalez elite would be rad 100% Looking back now I get people think he was lame but as a kid when he come out and the rumble and mauled the undertaker I was petrified of him! lol |
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Post by kirk815 on Mar 19, 2021 0:32:39 GMT -5
The legends contracts don’t stop them from working anywhere else, it just gives wwe the right to refuse an offer the legend may get. A lot of guys don’t sign, because while under a legends deal, wwe tries to protect the worker and their name sake. They don’t want the guys going out there and doing a million signings and appearances, because in the end, that hurts the stars value. Wwe act as their agent to get the legend the best deal possible. A lot of these guys refuse, because they want full control and want to work with a different agent. Yes, they will be leaving money on the table..but longevity wise, they could make more just by the value of their name. If you over saturate the market with yourself, nobody will want you years down the road. I'm not sure I'm following your first sentence - it seems to contradict itself. The deal doesn't stop them from working anywhere else, but the deal also allows WWE to refuse the offer that allows the wrestler to work somewhere else. Doesn't that effectively allow WWE to stop them from working somewhere else?
I don't think anyone is saying/speculating that if a Legend signs a contract that they can't have another job (construction, real estate, retail, whatever). It's just that most of us believe that a deal would prevent them from showing up on AEW on a weekly basis. It sounds like newer contracts have exclusivity verbiage in place (not sure if the older ones did). Again, some Legends like Bret Hart might have a little more wiggle room worked into his contract or get approval from WWE to do a one-off appearance, but that's the exception not the rule. In addition, WWE can terminate the Legends deal so if someone does have wiggle room to show up at other wrestling companies on a weekly basis, then I think WWE would terminate the deal.
I respectfully disagree with some of the other stuff. I don't think WWE cares about protecting the worker, the wrestler's namesake (if they aren't signed to them), or over saturating the market. WWE cares about making money, protecting their Brand, and keeping wrestlers away from the competition.
Regarding saturating the market/demand - some of these guys don't have years down the road to worry about based off of their age and the toll of the business (injuries, steroids, substance abuse, etc.). Retired wrestlers making money in the wrestling industry need to strike while the iron is still hot. Their name value/bargaining power will only diminish as time goes by (obviously, not talking about people like Cena/Rock that have transitioned to Hollywood).
Here's some information that I found regarding Legends deals (some from the dirtsheets/some straight from the wrestler's mouth):
Kurt Angle:
Report from around 2 years ago:
Taker's recent deal:
“McMahon made an offer to Taker that [he] couldn’t refuse financially in August that led to him signing the deal. At the time, there weren’t many details about it aside from the fact that Taker could no longer work the non-WWE signing dates that he had started to book. Taker was pulled from the Starrcast II convention, which ran on the same weekend as AEW’s Double or Nothing after he had already been announced to appear. When Taker’s previous deal expired last year, he started to agree to do appearances and then broke character by joining social media platforms. McMahon reportedly got so mad that Taker would actually take non-WWE bookings that he made him a big-money offer." www.forbes.com/sites/blakeoestriecher/2020/05/19/wwe-has-signed-a-legend-to-a-massive-contract/?sh=36bbf13f3754
Scott Steiner on a Legends deal:
“Well, I’ve been asked for a Legends contract,” said Steiner. “Unfortunately, my lawyer explained to me that it’s not worth the paper it’s written on.” WWE has promoted Steiner on a product as he is a playable character in WWE 2K14. Video game deals with former talent, however, are separate from WWE Legends contracts.
Bret Hart on a Legends deal (which based off of this, makes me believe he has more freedom or a different type of deal since 2014):
WWE Hall of Famer Bret Hart has also declined the Legends deal, and has no desire to sign one. He prefers to be “good friends” with WWE since he does not want to be owned by Vince McMahon’s sports-entertainment empire.
“I think I’m one of the few guys that doesn’t because?these Legends contracts sound great, but they own your soul. It’s like signing your life to the devil,” Hart told radio station 680 News in Toronto last summer. “I’m Bret ‘the Hitman’ Hart and I don’t want to give WWE my name.”
Hart continued: “It took me fourteen years of hard labor to own the rights to my name. That was one of the conditions when I left. To go back now and just give it to them – I’m doing fine with it on my own. I don’t like to be owned by WWE; I like to be good friends with them.”
www.wrestlinginc.com/news/2014/08/scott-steiner-explains-why-he-hasnt-signed-a-wwe-legends-579835/
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Post by WCWThunderRosa on Mar 19, 2021 0:44:59 GMT -5
AEW Unrivaled Bret Hart confirmed
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Post by kirk815 on Mar 19, 2021 0:46:22 GMT -5
DDP from when he was showing up on AEW: Page said he still wants to work with WWE, but WWE apparently didn’t find use for him for their recent RAW Reunion. They invited back a number of Legends but DDP wasn’t among them and he thinks it’s because of his ties to AEW. “When they didn’t put me on the Legends show [RAW Reunion]?every single Legend and Hall of Famer there, I guess I was getting, ‘ok, we’re not using you anymore D.’ I called down to the PC and talked to Matt Bloom and he said, ‘Listen D. You’re working with those guys now. We’re not gonna have you down here.’ I said ok and thanks for letting me know,” stated Page. www.wrestlinginc.com/news/2019/10/ddp-on-wwe-not-inviting-him-for-raw-reunion-661410/ |
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Post by SteveHulk on Mar 19, 2021 0:53:28 GMT -5
...the more I know about these WWE deals/contracts, the less I understand...
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Post by kirk815 on Mar 19, 2021 1:02:04 GMT -5
...the more I know about these WWE deals/contracts, the less I understand... Don't know why, but that reminded me of:
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Post by Jeremiah on Mar 19, 2021 1:04:40 GMT -5
Why doesnt wwe go after wrestlers no longer alive sounds messed up but it does 2 things
It helps family's estate or next of kin.
It keeps the wrestler from being forgotten.
I know some circumstances are not redeemable like benoit hart snuka
But
Kanyon
Mike Awesome
Crash Holly
Chris Candido
Sean O Haire
Crush solo run
Lance Cade
Sherri
Test
Bad News Brown
Butch Reed
Grand Master Sexay
Pitbull Gary
A Wall
David Von Erich
We already got
Mr. Perfect
British Bulldog
Umaga
Yokozuna
Elizabeth
Brian Pillman
Eddie Guerrero
Kerry Von Erich
Randy Savage
Im only putting guys that were deceased before mattel made a figure not guys who were made and then passed away
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Post by kirk815 on Mar 19, 2021 1:44:50 GMT -5
Why doesnt wwe go after wrestlers no longer alive sounds messed up but it does 2 things It helps family's estate or next of kin. It keeps the wrestler from being forgotten. I know some circumstances are not redeemable like benoit hart snuka But Kanyon Mike Awesome Crash Holly Chris Candido Sean O Haire Crush solo run Lance Cade Sherri Test Bad News Brown Butch Reed Grand Master Sexay Pitbull Gary A Wall David Von Erich We already got Mr. Perfect British Bulldog Umaga Yokozuna Elizabeth Brian Pillman Eddie Guerrero Kerry Von Erich Randy Savage Im only putting guys that were deceased before mattel made a figure not guys who were made and then passed away They released Sherri and they have signed other talent that has passed away such as Nelson Frazier JR. (alothough his widow did sue them).
I get what you are saying though and I agree it would be nice if they focused on helping family of Legends that passed away or even wrestlers still alive that didn't make as much as they should have in the Golden/New Gen era or blew through their money. It still irks me that they didn't utilize the Network more to bring back older Legends for specials (not the usual suspects that show up on every single reunion). And if they planned the timing right, I think it would increase sales to tie in with figure releases (example, releasing a Superstar BG documentary when the figure started hitting retail).
With that being said, WWE is a publicly traded company and not a charity. At the end of the day, they can't be responsible for every past wrestler's financial situation (or the family that they left behind). It might play a part in the back of their mind or be an added benefit when they are pursuing the deal, but it most likely isn't going to be the sole determining factor/reason why they sign someone (main exception I could see is if they were very close/loyal to the McMahon family).
I still think some of your list will eventually be signed (Test, Brian Christopher, Crush again, and maybe even Butch Reed/Bad News Brown). Along those lines, I could see people like Droz being signed/released.
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Post by newgenandy on Mar 19, 2021 3:22:57 GMT -5
...the more I know about these WWE deals/contracts, the less I understand... And in a nutshell that is the answer to the question lol When people say the contracts are not complicated they are. It’s business and WWE wants to protect itself, they don’t want to sign a legend who then shows up on aew Etc |
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Post by stc13 on Mar 19, 2021 7:38:27 GMT -5
...the more I know about these WWE deals/contracts, the less I understand... And in a nutshell that is the answer to the question lol When people say the contracts are not complicated they are. It’s business and WWE wants to protect itself, they don’t want to sign a legend who then shows up on aew Etc There are many, many examples of WWE contracts available in the public record through various lawsuits. That includes both active and legends talent. I'd encourage people go read through them and make their own decisions. So yes, to that regard many people are very much overcomplicating this issue. Most of these contracts are basically cookie cutter, with numbers or some minor adjustments in terms - again, all in the public record with some googling. |
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Post by kirk815 on Mar 19, 2021 8:51:11 GMT -5
And in a nutshell that is the answer to the question lol When people say the contracts are not complicated they are. It’s business and WWE wants to protect itself, they don’t want to sign a legend who then shows up on aew Etc There are many, many examples of WWE contracts available in the public record through various lawsuits. That includes both active and legends talent. I'd encourage people go read through them and make their own decisions. So yes, to that regard many people are very much overcomplicating this issue. Most of these contracts are basically cookie cutter, with numbers or some minor adjustments in terms - again, all in the public record with some googling. I did Google and could only find one example of the $10,000 contract and a Royalty statement sent to Superstar Billy Graham. I couldn't find numerous examples of Legends contracts for different wrestlers (I'm not even sure who the contract is for in the Google result because a name wasn't listed) let alone newer deals signed. It looks like they were scrubbed from the net.
Can you reference where you found them if they are still available? Are they recent or old? Just because the deals were cookie cutter in 2015 doesn't mean that they haven't added additional terms to the Legends contracts or increased the amount, especially after being sued. It wouldn't surprise me if people like Berzerker and Tugboat get a $10,000 cookie cutter contract, but I would imagine they do get complicated for people like Austin, DDP, Bret, Nash, Hogan, etc.
At this point, I guess it doesn't really matter anymore if the contract is complicated or not complicated or 10,000 vs. 10,000,000 - WWE isn't going to hand out contracts left and right (even if they are as low as $10,000) unless they think they can get a return on that investment and as mentioned, there are only so many slots available. Looking at Superstar's royalties, it doesn't appear that it is as easy one would think to make back that money.
Imagine having to explain to shareholders that you spent an additional $500,000 this year because you added 50 legends deals of lower midcard talent from 20/30/40 years ago. On top of that, you're not even sure when you'll be able to start releasing merchandise because the company that makes the only logical product that might sell (action figures) doesn't have enough spots available.
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Post by disorder on Mar 19, 2021 9:20:39 GMT -5
The legends contracts don’t stop them from working anywhere else, it just gives wwe the right to refuse an offer the legend may get. A lot of guys don’t sign, because while under a legends deal, wwe tries to protect the worker and their name sake. They don’t want the guys going out there and doing a million signings and appearances, because in the end, that hurts the stars value. Wwe act as their agent to get the legend the best deal possible. A lot of these guys refuse, because they want full control and want to work with a different agent. Yes, they will be leaving money on the table..but longevity wise, they could make more just by the value of their name. If you over saturate the market with yourself, nobody will want you years down the road. I'm not sure I'm following your first sentence - it seems to contradict itself. The deal doesn't stop them from working anywhere else, but the deal also allows WWE to refuse the offer that allows the wrestler to work somewhere else. Doesn't that effectively allow WWE to stop them from working somewhere else?
I don't think anyone is saying/speculating that if a Legend signs a contract that they can't have another job (construction, real estate, retail, whatever). It's just that most of us believe that a deal would prevent them from showing up on AEW on a weekly basis. It sounds like newer contracts have exclusivity verbiage in place (not sure if the older ones did). Again, some Legends like Bret Hart might have a little more wiggle room worked into his contract or get approval from WWE to do a one-off appearance, but that's the exception not the rule. In addition, WWE can terminate the Legends deal so if someone does have wiggle room to show up at other wrestling companies on a weekly basis, then I think WWE would terminate the deal.
I respectfully disagree with some of the other stuff. I don't think WWE cares about protecting the worker, the wrestler's namesake (if they aren't signed to them), or over saturating the market. WWE cares about making money, protecting their Brand, and keeping wrestlers away from the competition.
Regarding saturating the market/demand - some of these guys don't have years down the road to worry about based off of their age and the toll of the business (injuries, steroids, substance abuse, etc.). Retired wrestlers making money in the wrestling industry need to strike while the iron is still hot. Their name value/bargaining power will only diminish as time goes by (obviously, not talking about people like Cena/Rock that have transitioned to Hollywood).
Here's some information that I found regarding Legends deals (some from the dirtsheets/some straight from the wrestler's mouth):
Kurt Angle:
Report from around 2 years ago:
Taker's recent deal:
“McMahon made an offer to Taker that [he] couldn’t refuse financially in August that led to him signing the deal. At the time, there weren’t many details about it aside from the fact that Taker could no longer work the non-WWE signing dates that he had started to book. Taker was pulled from the Starrcast II convention, which ran on the same weekend as AEW’s Double or Nothing after he had already been announced to appear. When Taker’s previous deal expired last year, he started to agree to do appearances and then broke character by joining social media platforms. McMahon reportedly got so mad that Taker would actually take non-WWE bookings that he made him a big-money offer." www.forbes.com/sites/blakeoestriecher/2020/05/19/wwe-has-signed-a-legend-to-a-massive-contract/?sh=36bbf13f3754
Scott Steiner on a Legends deal:
“Well, I’ve been asked for a Legends contract,” said Steiner. “Unfortunately, my lawyer explained to me that it’s not worth the paper it’s written on.” WWE has promoted Steiner on a product as he is a playable character in WWE 2K14. Video game deals with former talent, however, are separate from WWE Legends contracts.
Bret Hart on a Legends deal (which based off of this, makes me believe he has more freedom or a different type of deal since 2014):
WWE Hall of Famer Bret Hart has also declined the Legends deal, and has no desire to sign one. He prefers to be “good friends” with WWE since he does not want to be owned by Vince McMahon’s sports-entertainment empire.
“I think I’m one of the few guys that doesn’t because?these Legends contracts sound great, but they own your soul. It’s like signing your life to the devil,” Hart told radio station 680 News in Toronto last summer. “I’m Bret ‘the Hitman’ Hart and I don’t want to give WWE my name.”
Hart continued: “It took me fourteen years of hard labor to own the rights to my name. That was one of the conditions when I left. To go back now and just give it to them – I’m doing fine with it on my own. I don’t like to be owned by WWE; I like to be good friends with them.”
www.wrestlinginc.com/news/2014/08/scott-steiner-explains-why-he-hasnt-signed-a-wwe-legends-579835/
Maybe it’s worded poorly, but they can make appearances elsewhere with a basic legends deal, but wwe can refuse them to do a job that might hurt their namesake. Legends deals are meant to help the stars and let the company continue to use their name and likeness. A big part of it is to make sure wrestlers don’t devalue their worth. Doing 60 signings a year brings their over all value of a talent down. Their signature is worth less and their appearance fees go down. When guys are out there doing spot shows and conventions every weekend, people get bored with them. wwe try to add longevity to their careers. Otherwise they’ll be doing signings at Carl’s Jr. because that’s the only place they can get booked anymore. To say wwe doesn’t care is just dumb. They pay some dudes for absolutely nothing and offer rehab services for guys that haven’t even been with the company in 30 years. This isn’t just a wwe thing either. Sports agents do the same thing. They help their clients keep their namesake valuable. Look at guys like rock n roll express. They do all sorts of small shows and any signing possible. They are out there hustling to make money, when slow a steady could work so much better in their favor. This sort of thing is used for bands as well. You over saturate a market and no one gives a damn after awhile. You end up not drawing and won’t get booked anymore. Sure, wwe wouldn’t want AEW using their larger named legends, but that should be understandable from a business aspect. The big deal dudes usually have specific legends contracts tailored to them, with better pay outs and advantages. Those are the guys that have more strict guidelines for appearances and what not. You seem to have more of a WWE = bad view of it all |
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Post by stc13 on Mar 19, 2021 9:24:44 GMT -5
There are many, many examples of WWE contracts available in the public record through various lawsuits. That includes both active and legends talent. I'd encourage people go read through them and make their own decisions. So yes, to that regard many people are very much overcomplicating this issue. Most of these contracts are basically cookie cutter, with numbers or some minor adjustments in terms - again, all in the public record with some googling. I did Google and could only find one example of the $10,000 contract and a Royalty statement sent to Superstar Billy Graham. I couldn't find numerous examples of Legends contracts for different wrestlers (I'm not even sure who the contract is for in the Google result because a name wasn't listed) let alone newer deals signed. It looks like they were scrubbed from the net.
Can you reference where you found them if they are still available? Are they recent or old? Just because the deals were cookie cutter in 2015 doesn't mean that they haven't added additional terms to the Legends contracts or increased the amount, especially after being sued. It wouldn't surprise me if people like Berzerker and Tugboat get a $10,000 cookie cutter contract, but I would imagine they do get complicated for people like Austin, DDP, Bret, Nash, Hogan, etc.
At this point, I guess it doesn't really matter anymore if the contract is complicated or not complicated or 10,000 vs. 10,000,000 - WWE isn't going to hand out contracts left and right (even if they are as low as $10,000) unless they think they can get a return on that investment and as mentioned, there are only so many slots available. Looking at Superstar's royalties, it doesn't appear that it is as easy one would think to make back that money.
Imagine having to explain to shareholders that you spent an additional $500,000 this year because you added 50 legends deals of lower midcard talent from 20/30/40 years ago. On top of that, you're not even sure when you'll be able to start releasing merchandise because the company that makes the only logical product that might sell (action figures) doesn't have enough spots available.
Many were submitted as part of the concussion lawsuit - I can remember Adam Bomb (who agree to the contract), Animal, Orndorff off the top of my head. Active talent were likely filed as part of SEC disclosures, but that's just a best recollection. But yeah, this was probably at least 4 years ago and I was doing the research as a part of a work-related project so I had time to poke around. I think I had them saved on an old hard drive, so I may be able to dig some up if people are curious. To your points - I'd all but guarantee top merch sellers have more generous deals. And terms could have changed since then, but I doubt it was in any major way for low end talent. I definitely think the ROI is higher than people think. WWE has likely signed all of this talent directly and negotiated that licensors won't use outside talent in exchange for a higher cut of sales. When you're talking about licenses across multiple toy scales, video games, trading cards, etc, the economy of scale is a win-win for WWE and licensors. They're selling a slate of X legends, not specifically Bam Bam Bigelow over say Alex Wright. And as Steve said, some will cycle off and new names will be added on. But there's an incentive to keep the overall size at a sweet spot - it won't dip too low, but it probably won't get much larger. But it really doesn't matter. We're going to get who WWE signs, and all collectors can do is hope that companies like Jazwares or Boss Fight are able to make some of the guys who fall through the cracks. But I spend all day crunching numbers and staring at budgets for my job, so I guess I'm a nerd who finds the economics of all of it interesting. |
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Post by Davey on Mar 19, 2021 10:31:41 GMT -5
Interestingly WWE have just added a new Marty Jannetty page and gallery to their superstars page. Hopefully that's a good sign!
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Post by WCWThunderRosa on Mar 19, 2021 10:44:58 GMT -5
WWE’s contracts are probably different than they were before AEW started
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Post by Chip on Mar 19, 2021 11:08:46 GMT -5
We honestly need a FAQ here so we don’t have to keep having these kind of threads tbh nobody would read it. it wouldnt matter. |
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