|
|
Post by hulkhogancollector on May 8, 2012 15:03:21 GMT -5
Bret's time in WCW was a series of botches but Bret didn't help things. Many of the people I watched wrestling with at the time saw him as a whiner and an over-rated technician that needed HBK or Austin to draw. It was amazing the way fans turned on Bret in 98 to only turn back to his side the past few years.[/quote]
Of course, and this is the very reason Bret Hart's return to the WWE did not work. You got to remember that fans like us are in the minority and the bigger audience who are not as obsessive as us believe everything that WWE tells them. As soon as the Bret screwed Bret Raw everyone at my school who was a fan or even into it a bit more than others took this as a black & white fact. Bret's the bad guy, Bret was in the wrong etc. They then see his deranged character after a few months that fits into the image of Bret that the WWE wanted to people to believe was really him. Of course over the years digs where given to Bret, i remember watching something on WWE where they talked about it & everyone was so cutting ( i vividly remember the Big Show mocking Bret and saying Bret screwed Bret, end of fact). You also had the 'innocent' HBK denying involvement for years and then turning round on confidential and saying he knew about it. The funny thing about 'Wrestling with Shadows', even though it vindicated everything Bret had said for the past year, most fans already made up there mind. Bret was in the wrong, and WWE made everything in their power over a course of years to discredit Bret.
Anyone remember when WWE had that massive poll in WWE magazine and on WWE.com for fans to vote for who they thought was the greatest of all time? Months it rolled on for with massive hype. In the end it came down to Bret & Shawn & Bret won. 10's of thousands of fans voted for him. In the end after all of this WWE magazine had a small part on one page after it was done saying 'In what HAS to be considered a huge upset and surprise victory, Bret hart has won the poll' etc. Unreal.
Fast forward to Bret's return. There was two things wrong with his comeback a) most people who watch the current product didn't watch wrestling when he was about and b) the sheeple have been told by WWE (who like to re-vision history) that Bret screwed Bret, it was all his fault at the screwjob etc. Of course these fans all accepted this, it was the companies line. Then Bret makes a heroic return, comes back and beats the nasty Vince who screwed him at SS97. Most fans were confused, they had been told for over 10 years that Bret was in the wrong, now he is back as the big goodie beating Vince and its accepted that Vince did actually screw Bret??? I don't agree that Bret is in the good books with these fans now, i actually think his pop's are only good in Canada & New York where the more hardcore fanbase's are. The poor fans were totally lost through the whole storyline due to Vince's propaganda lol!!
It amazed me how badly WCW used Bret, even if the Hogan accusations are true, it was not 1993 anymore. Bret should have had a massive program with a heel hogan, eventually leading to a mega dream match of a face crow Sting vs Bret Hart. The money all those guys would have made would have been insane. Even as a 12 year old watching Bret on his first nitro, i couldn't believe what they were doing, i expected them to take his character and maybe make him a bit more bad ass after the screwjob, especially after how much he improved on the mic in 1997. We all know how good Bret was, regardless if you like him or not. This has all been covered a million times here though.
[/quote]
Well Said I will add Vader to this seeing him jobbing to HBK was ridiculous IMHO.
|
|
Deleted
Joined on: Nov 18, 2024 17:20:23 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 8, 2012 16:48:04 GMT -5
Vader was killed off SO badly at IYH:International Incident its absolutely unreal.......Vader(and Vince) needed a convincing win for Vaders team at IYH to drive buys for Summerslam but alas one of the bizs greatest egos destroyed it.after pinning HBK cleanly Vader takes(an ego fueled)plancha dive and ran up the aisle like Warrior and Hogan had beat on him for 5 minutes. cue the worst buyrate in Summerslam history at that time(0.58).......nobody ordered Summerslam because they didnt care......it never looked like Michaels was gonna lose. HBK literally could not stop being a child for 5  in minutes at this time.....it would have greatly benefited Vince and co if the Vader feud had been booked correctly.but Vince had such a hard on for shawn he couldnt see the harm he did. |
|
Daniel F'n Bryan
Main Eventer
Joined on: Oct 24, 2011 0:33:48 GMT -5
Posts: 2,929
|
Post by Daniel F'n Bryan on May 9, 2012 15:18:13 GMT -5
Vader was killed off SO badly at IYH:International Incident its absolutely unreal.......Vader(and Vince) needed a convincing win for Vaders team at IYH to drive buys for Summerslam but alas one of the bizs greatest egos destroyed it.after pinning HBK cleanly Vader takes(an ego fueled)plancha dive and ran up the aisle like Warrior and Hogan had beat on him for 5 minutes. cue the worst buyrate in Summerslam history at that time(0.58).......nobody ordered Summerslam because they didnt care......it never looked like Michaels was gonna lose. HBK literally could not stop being a child for 5 in minutes at this time.....it would have greatly benefited Vince and co if the Vader feud had been booked correctly.but Vince had such a hard on for shawn he couldnt see the harm he did. How do you know that HBK was the one who came up with that idea? I know of HBKs politics around that time and I know he pretty much got what he wanted when he wanted it but how do you know for sure that he influenced that booking. |
|
Deleted
Joined on: Nov 18, 2024 17:20:23 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 9, 2012 18:22:17 GMT -5
Vader was killed off SO badly at IYH:International Incident its absolutely unreal.......Vader(and Vince) needed a convincing win for Vaders team at IYH to drive buys for Summerslam but alas one of the bizs greatest egos destroyed it.after pinning HBK cleanly Vader takes(an ego fueled)plancha dive and ran up the aisle like Warrior and Hogan had beat on him for 5 minutes. cue the worst buyrate in Summerslam history at that time(0.58).......nobody ordered Summerslam because they didnt care......it never looked like Michaels was gonna lose. HBK literally could not stop being a child for 5 in minutes at this time.....it would have greatly benefited Vince and co if the Vader feud had been booked correctly.but Vince had such a hard on for shawn he couldnt see the harm he did. How do you know that HBK was the one who came up with that idea? I know of HBKs politics around that time and I know he pretty much got what he wanted when he wanted it but how do you know for sure that he influenced that booking. I dont really but do you think he had zero to do with Vader running scared from him? when I watch IYH:International Incident its impossible for me not to think this was classic HBK in action.if he was gonna "job"to Vader(whom he hated and never wanted to put over or look weak against)you can bet he was going to have the last laugh. |
|
|
|
Post by hulkhogancollector on May 10, 2012 0:45:31 GMT -5
How do you know that HBK was the one who came up with that idea? I know of HBKs politics around that time and I know he pretty much got what he wanted when he wanted it but how do you know for sure that he influenced that booking. I dont really but do you think he had zero to do with Vader running scared from him? when I watch IYH:International Incident its impossible for me not to think this was classic HBK in action.if he was gonna "job"to Vader(whom he hated and never wanted to put over or look weak against)you can bet he was going to have the last laugh. That booking made the match look like a joke no one watching that would think Vader would be afraid of HBK. I really didn't care for HBK as a champion, Bret was a lot better and jobbed to Vader on free TV. |
|
PenguinDeluxe
Main Eventer
20 Refs and Counting
Joined on: Dec 19, 2006 21:22:54 GMT -5
Posts: 4,932
|
Post by PenguinDeluxe on May 13, 2012 20:53:17 GMT -5
Didn't Vader have a lot of drug issues during that time frame though?
|
|
|
|
Post by hulkhogancollector on May 14, 2012 1:47:08 GMT -5
Didn't Vader have a lot of drug issues during that time frame though? Vader issues were with weight gain, HBK on the other hand was going thru a druggie phase at that time he was partying very heavy in the mid to late 90s. |
|
Deleted
Joined on: Nov 18, 2024 17:20:23 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 14, 2012 14:09:15 GMT -5
Didn't Vader have a lot of drug issues during that time frame though? had never heard of that.even if he had theres no excusing the "build" for this PPV Main Event. |
|
Deleted
Joined on: Nov 18, 2024 17:20:24 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 14, 2012 14:47:01 GMT -5
Vader should have held the title instead of Sid BOTH times...him vs Taker would have been alot better at Mania..and had he not been buried the past summer it could have worked wonders
|
|
koreygunz
Main Eventer
Elite Trader
287 Refs in WFClassifieds and counting
Joined on: Jun 18, 2006 15:31:49 GMT -5
Posts: 4,708
|
Post by koreygunz on May 14, 2012 16:57:28 GMT -5
Even though I actually enjoyed Sid taking the belt off HBK, I would have booked the SummerSlam match in the same way, making Vader look strong by beating HBK a few times but wanting the title so bad he had the match restarted, then had Vader take the title off HBK at Survivor Series. This would lead to Michaels having to work his way back up the ladder over the next two months (maybe a #1 contenders match with Sid at the December PPV) and beat Vader at the Rumble, in HBKs hometown, in the rubber match to take back the title before the (planned) match with Bret at Mania.
|
|
|
|
Post by plastichoneymoon on May 14, 2012 17:10:31 GMT -5
Vader was killed off SO badly at IYH:International Incident its absolutely unreal.......Vader(and Vince) needed a convincing win for Vaders team at IYH to drive buys for Summerslam but alas one of the bizs greatest egos destroyed it.after pinning HBK cleanly Vader takes(an ego fueled)plancha dive and ran up the aisle like Warrior and Hogan had beat on him for 5 minutes. cue the worst buyrate in Summerslam history at that time(0.58).......nobody ordered Summerslam because they didnt care......it never looked like Michaels was gonna lose. HBK literally could not stop being a child for 5 in minutes at this time.....it would have greatly benefited Vince and co if the Vader feud had been booked correctly.but Vince had such a hard on for shawn he couldnt see the harm he did. How do you know that HBK was the one who came up with that idea? I know of HBKs politics around that time and I know he pretty much got what he wanted when he wanted it but how do you know for sure that he influenced that booking. I thought I remembered Jim Cornette saying something along the lines of Shawn not wanting to job to Vader cleanly. I could be wrong, but I thought it was from one of his shoot interviews. |
|
|
|
Post by hulkhogancollector on May 14, 2012 19:37:36 GMT -5
How do you know that HBK was the one who came up with that idea? I know of HBKs politics around that time and I know he pretty much got what he wanted when he wanted it but how do you know for sure that he influenced that booking. I thought I remembered Jim Cornette saying something along the lines of Shawn not wanting to job to Vader cleanly. I could be wrong, but I thought it was from one of his shoot interviews. Jim Cornette YouShoot: Shawn Michaels and Vader |
|
Daniel F'n Bryan
Main Eventer
Joined on: Oct 24, 2011 0:33:48 GMT -5
Posts: 2,929
|
Post by Daniel F'n Bryan on May 15, 2012 0:08:47 GMT -5
I thought I remembered Jim Cornette saying something along the lines of Shawn not wanting to job to Vader cleanly. I could be wrong, but I thought it was from one of his shoot interviews. Jim Cornette YouShoot: Shawn Michaels and Vader Okay so you guys were right. And to the guy that suggested Vader take Sids spot at Survivor Series......HELL NO! I loved that HBK/Sid fued so if that never happend id be a sad fellow. THe match at SS was perfect between HBK and Sid so just leave that booking alone. ;D |
|
Deleted
Joined on: Nov 18, 2024 17:20:24 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 17, 2012 12:35:09 GMT -5
Fast forward to Bret's return. There was two things wrong with his comeback a) most people who watch the current product didn't watch wrestling when he was about and b) the sheeple have been told by WWE (who like to re-vision history) that Bret screwed Bret, it was all his fault at the screwjob etc. Of course these fans all accepted this, it was the companies line. Then Bret makes a heroic return, comes back and beats the nasty Vince who screwed him at SS97. Most fans were confused, they had been told for over 10 years that Bret was in the wrong, now he is back as the big goodie beating Vince and its accepted that Vince did actually screw Bret??? I don't agree that Bret is in the good books with these fans now, i actually think his pop's are only good in Canada & New York where the more hardcore fanbase's are. The poor fans were totally lost through the whole storyline due to Vince's propaganda lol!! I have to disagree with this..by saying that Bret was in the wrong wasn't it training us the fans to HATE the McMahon charcter showing that he was a heartless lewd business man willing to step on whoever Well Said I will add Vader to this seeing him jobbing to HBK was ridiculous IMHO. [/quote] |
|
June
Main Eventer
High Fives All Around!!!
Joined on: May 31, 2009 10:54:49 GMT -5
Posts: 4,457
|
Post by June on May 17, 2012 13:33:12 GMT -5
Sucks that Taker refused to put him over.  The problem isnt Taker refused to put him over, the problem is he shouldnt have been paired with Taker in the first place and second of all his entire WCW gimmick was basically dropped and he wasnt given a chance to be as great as he was in WCW. The problem is that DDP's WCW claim to fame was being Bischoff's pet and wife-swapping buddy, so that does not really translate into a main event push in the WWF. |
|
Daniel F'n Bryan
Main Eventer
Joined on: Oct 24, 2011 0:33:48 GMT -5
Posts: 2,929
|
Post by Daniel F'n Bryan on May 17, 2012 13:36:02 GMT -5
The problem isnt Taker refused to put him over, the problem is he shouldnt have been paired with Taker in the first place and second of all his entire WCW gimmick was basically dropped and he wasnt given a chance to be as great as he was in WCW. The problem is that DDP's WCW claim to fame was being Bischoff's pet and wife-swapping buddy, so that does not really translate into a main event push in the WWF. Umm how exactly does that effect his on-screen character.........weather thats true or not it doesnt affect how good in the ring and on the mic DDP was in WCW. |
|
June
Main Eventer
High Fives All Around!!!
Joined on: May 31, 2009 10:54:49 GMT -5
Posts: 4,457
|
Post by June on May 17, 2012 13:39:56 GMT -5
The problem is that DDP's WCW claim to fame was being Bischoff's pet and wife-swapping buddy, so that does not really translate into a main event push in the WWF. Umm how exactly does that effect his on-screen character.........weather thats true or not it doesnt affect how good in the ring and on the mic DDP was in WCW. The WWF roster was loaded with top stars, and without the bosses favoritism there was no time or need to shove him down the fans throats enough to get him over. |
|
