Jamal
Main Eventer
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Post by Jamal on Apr 21, 2012 9:37:07 GMT -5
To me, this is the best HIAC match ever. RR2000 was the street fight man.Hell in a Cell came one month later at No Way Out. and yeah its excellent.defo in my top 3 HIAC matches.In fact I think Ill go watch it now. Whoops. Either way, both were amazing matches. |
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Post by cordless2016 on Apr 21, 2012 10:38:41 GMT -5
Only one slight difference...Flair made his opponents look like gold while most of HHH's opponents ended up in worse shape after feuding w/ him. For example, Flair made Sting into a star before ever droping the title to him. As for RVD, Booker T, Kane, and Goldberg, there value decreased dramatically after having faced off w/ The Game during his "reign of terror." But needing three other guys and a sledgehammer to defeat an opponent does make them look good. If Triple H was jumping up from Frogsplashes & Choke Slams and started to "Hulk Out" then you might have a point. But unless I missed something he cheated in 95% of his matches. Look at what happened after all those guys feuded w/ him... RVD - After putting over HHH, was thrown into mid-card matches w/ ric Flair, and then teamed w/ Kane for a few months in 2003, and then back to the mid-card until about 2006. Kane - Whole backstory ruined w/ the Katie Vick storyline, and then after putting HHH over, teamed w/ RVD for a while, then HHH unmasked him, and then was basically mid-card talent for the rest of his career w/ a few world title shots once a year. Booker T - Was told "his people" don't win world titles, and then lost to HHH. Went on to feud w/ a then mid-card Christian, where he put him over throughout the summer. Then basically spent the next 3 years trying to build himself back up after feuding w/ The Game. Goldberg - Had a ton of steam after defeating The Rock and Jericho clean, but after being demolished in the Elimination Chamber, his title win the following month was lackluster. After putting over HHH a few months later, he began a feud w/ Johnathon Coachman and La Resistance before finishing w/ Lesnar. ...none of those guys look good during of after their feuds w/ HHH. He may have cheated an used sledgehammers, but when Flair was done w/ a feud, you knew his opponents were stars. After HHH was done w/ a feud, 95% of the time the guys was in the same place or worse. Thats why they had to bring Chris Benoit to Raw in 2004. HHH made everybody on Raw besides HBK look like crap. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2012 13:53:30 GMT -5
I'm sorry but I will just never understand the love people have for Triple H in the ring.
I'm not anti-H because he slept with Vince's daughter but I'm anti-H just because I see him as being very average on the mic and in the ring.
For all the years he was on top he really should have cemented a legacy or made more of an impact than he really has...
He will never be considered one of the greatest of all time and will always be overshadowed by guys like HBK, Rock, Stone Cold, Bret Hart, Hulk Hogan, etc. and I think that's because Triple H never broke through the same glass ceiling as they did.
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Post by marino13 on Apr 22, 2012 7:32:17 GMT -5
But needing three other guys and a sledgehammer to defeat an opponent does make them look good. If Triple H was jumping up from Frogsplashes & Choke Slams and started to "Hulk Out" then you might have a point. But unless I missed something he cheated in 95% of his matches. Look at what happened after all those guys feuded w/ him... RVD - After putting over HHH, was thrown into mid-card matches w/ ric Flair, and then teamed w/ Kane for a few months in 2003, and then back to the mid-card until about 2006. Kane - Whole backstory ruined w/ the Katie Vick storyline, and then after putting HHH over, teamed w/ RVD for a while, then HHH unmasked him, and then was basically mid-card talent for the rest of his career w/ a few world title shots once a year. Booker T - Was told "his people" don't win world titles, and then lost to HHH. Went on to feud w/ a then mid-card Christian, where he put him over throughout the summer. Then basically spent the next 3 years trying to build himself back up after feuding w/ The Game. Goldberg - Had a ton of steam after defeating The Rock and Jericho clean, but after being demolished in the Elimination Chamber, his title win the following month was lackluster. After putting over HHH a few months later, he began a feud w/ Johnathon Coachman and La Resistance before finishing w/ Lesnar. ...none of those guys look good during of after their feuds w/ HHH. He may have cheated an used sledgehammers, but when Flair was done w/ a feud, you knew his opponents were stars. After HHH was done w/ a feud, 95% of the time the guys was in the same place or worse. Thats why they had to bring Chris Benoit to Raw in 2004. HHH made everybody on Raw besides HBK look like crap. I seem to recall guys like Windham, Kolloff, & Luger all went from almost winning the belt to being negated to tag team and mid-card feuds. Luger & Windham stayed there till Flair left the company. Ronnie Garvin who had a brief run was also moved back down the ladder after his run with Flair was over. And to act like Kane went from losing his mask to instantly jobbing is ignorant. The man went undefeated for six months and was involved in a huge match at Mania that year. Another thing Beniot wasn't moved to Raw because everyone else looked bad. He was receiving the loudest pops after his loss to Angle. And as I recall Triple H did nothing but put Benoit over during their whole feud. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2012 7:47:04 GMT -5
wasnt Benoit just a bystander to the HBK vs HHH feud for most of the buildup to WMXX?yes he was.I can say this confidently because I recently rewtached that build and excellent duo of matches.
and although Kane had a strong run initially maskless he ended up being booked with Shane as his equal by septemeber of that year......at Unforgiven 2003 Shane was booked to be his equal in a last man standing match.......then an ambulance match........so the magic was well gone.he was unmasked in June and by dec(6 months later)he was just another guy.the Shane series did him untold damge IMO
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Jamal
Main Eventer
Joined on: Nov 24, 2005 14:53:44 GMT -5
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Post by Jamal on Apr 22, 2012 10:38:22 GMT -5
Benoit was just a sideshow to HHH and HBK his entire RR and world championship run.
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Post by cordless2016 on Apr 22, 2012 11:55:39 GMT -5
1) Yes, Kane went undefeated because he feuded w/ a great superstar in Shane McMahon!!!!....yeah, right. He feuded w/ Shane for 3 months, and Shane was portrayed on Kane's level. Yeah, Kane looked strong. Lets also not forget how Taker basically dominated him at WM20. Yes, Kane looked super good during those 6 months...  2) Yeah, no. There was literally nobody for HHH to feud w/ besides for HBK by 2004. Benoit was getting over on SD, so they moved him to Raw because after HBK, who was there for HHH to feud w/?. The answer is nobody. And after WM, HHH never really made Benoit look good. Benoit played second fiddle to the HHH/HBK feud. And when HHH did move back to Benoit, he basically dominated in all over their matches and Benoit never went over clean one on one. Their match at Vengeance...Eugene had to hit HHH w/ a chair. Their iron man match...same thing. |
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Bullgod
Main Eventer
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Post by Bullgod on Apr 22, 2012 14:12:22 GMT -5
I believe he would have made it, politics aside he is actually a good wrestler. Plus Austin was a face, The Rock was a face. I think they needed a fresh heel to work with and Triple H was that. Triple H was a good antagonist despite weather he had the "IT" factor or not.
The real question is would he have made it as big if he wasn't bangin Stephanie
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Post by DTP. on Apr 22, 2012 14:25:20 GMT -5
Yes. Triple H was still getting the main event push in 1999 whilst Stone Cold was around.
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Deja Voodoo
Superstar
Yup, it's Mike Haggar piledriving a Shark!!
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Post by Deja Voodoo on Apr 22, 2012 18:21:16 GMT -5
1) Yes, Kane went undefeated because he feuded w/ a great superstar in Shane McMahon!!!!....yeah, right. He feuded w/ Shane for 3 months, and Shane was portrayed on Kane's level. Yeah, Kane looked strong. Lets also not forget how Taker basically dominated him at WM20. Yes, Kane looked super good during those 6 months... 2) Yeah, no. There was literally nobody for HHH to feud w/ besides for HBK by 2004. Benoit was getting over on SD, so they moved him to Raw because after HBK, who was there for HHH to feud w/?. The answer is nobody. And after WM, HHH never really made Benoit look good. Benoit played second fiddle to the HHH/HBK feud. And when HHH did move back to Benoit, he basically dominated in all over their matches and Benoit never went over clean one on one. Their match at Vengeance...Eugene had to hit HHH w/ a chair. Their iron man match...same thing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Shane always booked to look good in all his feuds? Then why would this feud be any different?  |
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Post by marino13 on Apr 22, 2012 20:27:34 GMT -5
1) Yes, Kane went undefeated because he feuded w/ a great superstar in Shane McMahon!!!!....yeah, right. He feuded w/ Shane for 3 months, and Shane was portrayed on Kane's level. Yeah, Kane looked strong. Lets also not forget how Taker basically dominated him at WM20. Yes, Kane looked super good during those 6 months... 2) Yeah, no. There was literally nobody for HHH to feud w/ besides for HBK by 2004. Benoit was getting over on SD, so they moved him to Raw because after HBK, who was there for HHH to feud w/?. The answer is nobody. And after WM, HHH never really made Benoit look good. Benoit played second fiddle to the HHH/HBK feud. And when HHH did move back to Benoit, he basically dominated in all over their matches and Benoit never went over clean one on one. Their match at Vengeance...Eugene had to hit HHH w/ a chair. Their iron man match...same thing. Kane also had a good feud with RVD. YouTube it, you may enjoy the matches they had. I did. How can you blame Triple H for the way Kane was booked against Taker at Wrestlemania 20? And didn't Shane also go toe to toe with Kurt Angle? Or was that Triple H's fault too? |
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Post by cordless2016 on Apr 22, 2012 20:27:51 GMT -5
1) Yes, Kane went undefeated because he feuded w/ a great superstar in Shane McMahon!!!!....yeah, right. He feuded w/ Shane for 3 months, and Shane was portrayed on Kane's level. Yeah, Kane looked strong. Lets also not forget how Taker basically dominated him at WM20. Yes, Kane looked super good during those 6 months... 2) Yeah, no. There was literally nobody for HHH to feud w/ besides for HBK by 2004. Benoit was getting over on SD, so they moved him to Raw because after HBK, who was there for HHH to feud w/?. The answer is nobody. And after WM, HHH never really made Benoit look good. Benoit played second fiddle to the HHH/HBK feud. And when HHH did move back to Benoit, he basically dominated in all over their matches and Benoit never went over clean one on one. Their match at Vengeance...Eugene had to hit HHH w/ a chair. Their iron man match...same thing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Shane always booked to look good in all his feuds? Then why would this feud be any different? Pretty much yeah, but before feuding w/ Kane, Shane needed the Mean Street Possie to help him defeat mid-carders like X-Pac and Test. It only hurt Kane, who was an upper mid-carder/low main eventer, when Shane needed no help to take him on. |
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jason1980s
Main Eventer
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Post by jason1980s on Apr 23, 2012 21:22:32 GMT -5
The real question is would he have made it as big if he wasn't bangin Stephanie I wonder what would be if he stuck with WCW in 1995 and maybe until the end in 2001. No Shawn Michaels to pal around with and no Stephanie storyline wedding. |
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WWE Common Terry
Main Eventer
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Post by WWE Common Terry on Apr 24, 2012 5:43:20 GMT -5
Triple H's return at MSG was huge.
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Post by cordless2016 on Apr 24, 2012 7:51:53 GMT -5
1) I saw the feud they had when it origionally happened. They had one off match at SummerSlam 2003 that ended up being a crappy match. Very sloppy w/ no flow to it.
2) Who said I'm blaming HHH. Your the one who brought up Kane having a strong push after being unmasked, and I refruted it by pointing to his value killing feud w/ Shane.
3) Again, I origionally mentioned the crappy Katie Vick angle and then taking Kane's mask as only benefitting HHH and killing Kane's value. Your the one who brought up Kane having a strong push after getting unmasked, and I disagreed, pointing to the fact that Shane was portrayed on Kane's level, basically killing anmy value Kane had left IMO. Not sure why you keep saying I blame this on HHH. I only brought up Katie Vick.
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threehgame
Main Eventer
Beyond Bored By You and Your Wrestling
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Post by threehgame on Apr 24, 2012 10:00:13 GMT -5
2) Who said I'm blaming HHH. Your the one who brought up Kane having a strong push after being unmasked, and I refruted it by pointing to his value killing feud w/ Shane. If you think the unmasking killed Kane then you must be forgetting Kane's teaming with X-Pac and his less than 24 hour WWF title run. Kane was a broken pointless character long before HHH. Booker T was brought in as a joke character was treated like crap until he was legitimized in the WWE by his run with HHH. Booker wasn't given the title and returned to his normal role within the WWE. RVD was a mid-carder in ECW where he was arguably the biggest name and most entertaining wrestler. In WWE he was placed in a similar role and in hindsight that is where he belonged. When he was given the WWE Championship he blew it. Goldberg just wasn't a WWE property and for you it might have hurt his image to lose in the Chamber but for me it built him. It took a team of people and a weapon to stop him. After his title run he was devalued it would seem because the WWE didn't see value in him. As soon as Goldberg could leave he did leave. Benoit was over on Smackdown but the crowd on Smackdown got to see his rise. The saw Heyman jerking him around and the feud with Angle. The Raw fans got to see the vanilla midget side of him. He was thrown on the show to make way for Eddie and JBL, but couldn't overcome HBK/HHH in popularity. HHH had little to do with that as Benoit's whole career was being stuck in between bigger feuds or stars and getting shuffled to the side. |
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Post by cordless2016 on Apr 25, 2012 17:17:33 GMT -5
Kane and X-Pac's teaming got both guys very over. Don't know how that killed him when it simply showed there was someone actually behind the mask. As for his title reign, the fact he beat Austin at the height of his popularity was amazing. Loosing it back to Austin the next night didn't hurt him given Austin was the top star at the time. Other put over Austin too, including Taker around the same time. Not sure why that loss killed him when winning the title gave him more credibility IMO.
Legitimized? HHH on screen bashed all of Booker's accomplishments on TV every week leading up to WM19. He made Booker look more of a joke than he had during the Invasion angle. Booker was one of the most over face's on Raw going into 2003, and HHH killed all of what Booker did to build himself back up in 2002 after his terrible 2001.
By the time they gave him the title in 2006 his character was already damaged and he didn't care anymore. But from 2001-2002, he was the most over guy in the company. Nobody got bigger pops than RVD and his merch was found throughout the fans. Instead of making him the biggest star in the company, he was jobbed out to HHH throughout 2002 and 2003. Had they given him the title in 2002, I believe he wouldn't have blown it because he still gave a damn about the business back then.
Most people didn't want to see Goldberg have to struggle to get to the top. We wanted to see what got him over in WCW, and thats him being an unstoppable wreaking machine. HHH was legit hurt and couldn't move, yet still did not put Goldberg over ever though Rock and Jericho both did in the months prior. We didn't want depth to his character or any of that crap. We didn't want long promos from him. We just wanted the machine from WCW.
Benoit was moved to Raw way before they even thought about creating the JBL character. Not sure if you watched at the time or not, but Lesnar was still on SD when Benoit moved to Raw. They didn't know he was leaving yet and Benoit was moved to Raw for someone else for HHH to feud w/ while Eddie was suppose get to the top and to continue w/ Lesnar after WM.
As for popularity, Benoit was getting huge pops on Raw throughout his title run. He was over (back then everyone watched Raw and SD), so it had nothing to do w/ him not being as popular as HHH or HBK. The fact is that he was portrayed as second tier to the HHH/HBK feud. Benoit was definatly over, but the writters never wrote him at THE MAN on Raw, and Benoit suffered while HHH still got more screen time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2012 18:51:21 GMT -5
in NO way did HHH legitimize Booker T.as said above he was ridiculed week in and week out and STILL got beat at WM.there was even racial jibes thrown in and he STILL didnt get the W.
now there is a theory that Goldbergs signing changed the outcome of that match in respect to Booker winning... something Im not too sure about.
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Deja Voodoo
Superstar
Yup, it's Mike Haggar piledriving a Shark!!
Joined on: Oct 23, 2009 10:30:25 GMT -5
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Post by Deja Voodoo on Apr 25, 2012 19:45:14 GMT -5
Legitimized? HHH on screen bashed all of Booker's accomplishments on TV every week leading up to WM19. He made Booker look more of a joke than he had during the Invasion angle. Booker was one of the most over face's on Raw going into 2003, and HHH killed all of what Booker did to build himself back up in 2002 after his terrible 2001. So you think this did Booker more favors than being a legit threat to the World title... Wow, really? |
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Post by cordless2016 on Apr 26, 2012 22:39:58 GMT -5
Legitimized? HHH on screen bashed all of Booker's accomplishments on TV every week leading up to WM19. He made Booker look more of a joke than he had during the Invasion angle. Booker was one of the most over face's on Raw going into 2003, and HHH killed all of what Booker did to build himself back up in 2002 after his terrible 2001. So you think this did Booker more favors than being a legit threat to the World title... Wow, really? I'll agree that that segment did more harm to Booker than most of the crap the WWE pulled w/ him, but atleast they never ridiculed his acomplishments around then. They still refered to him as an upper star and took his 5 WCW world titles seriously. And IMO that segment was no worse than when John Cena beat Edge throughout Boston and threw him in the river or any other segments where stuff like that happens. When Booker went up against HHH, they had him bash all of Booker's accomplishments as nothing. He was said to be a chump...and then HHH backed it up by defeating him at WM. That did more harm to him than anything else when HHH said his people don't win world titles then went on to defeat Booker. These promos were worse than the one you posted IMO... |
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