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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2012 15:49:22 GMT -5
I tell ya lads this can NEVER be underestimated as a pivotal event in the MNW.
why?
because it showed the likes of Jericho,Benoit and Eddie amongst others that Vince was willing to give smaller guys a shot.I bet WCWs midcard looked on at Waltman enviously in 98.
thoughts?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2012 15:52:33 GMT -5
Agreed. I think what really turned heads was the push that The Hardy Boyz and Edge & Christian received.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2012 15:59:55 GMT -5
true but the massive push came when the war was over in 2000 IMO.but its still a fair point.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2012 16:05:58 GMT -5
It still effected guys like Rey Mysterio and others who were still at WCW but by then it was too little and too late.
The nWo damage had been done.
There was a great point made by Big Show (believe it or not) that while WCW was notoriously known for taking older and well-established superstars, it was the younger guys that WWF was interested in and when they started jumping ship and getting pushed it had to have been rough on the young guys in WCW who were left behind to be stuck in mid-card purgatory.
Chris Benoit
Chris Jericho
Big Show
Eddie Guerrero
Etc.
All young guys who hadn't really established themselves or had "a run" in the WWF yet. When they jumped ship, the WCW began to sink.
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Post by Johnny Wrestling on Mar 23, 2012 16:29:42 GMT -5
It still effected guys like Rey Mysterio and others who were still at WCW but by then it was too little and too late. The nWo damage had been done. There was a great point made by Big Show (believe it or not) that while WCW was notoriously known for taking older and well-established superstars, it was the younger guys that WWF was interested in and when they started jumping ship and getting pushed it had to have been rough on the young guys in WCW who were left behind to be stuck in mid-card purgatory. Chris Benoit Chris Jericho Big Show Eddie Guerrero Etc. All young guys who hadn't really established themselves or had "a run" in the WWF yet. When they jumped ship, the WCW began to sink. That does make a lot of sense, because on their last months, people claim WCW was getting better, and that was when they started pushing new stars. |
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Post by mikey1974 on Mar 23, 2012 17:10:14 GMT -5
another thing - it was one of the big turning points of the Monday Night War, when for once a big WCW star decided to jump ship to the WWF, instead of the other way around....
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apollocreed
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Post by apollocreed on Mar 23, 2012 19:17:46 GMT -5
another thing - it was one of the big turning points of the Monday Night War, when for once a big WCW star decided to jump ship to the WWF, instead of the other way around.... this is what I was coming to post, the fact is we were so used to guys showing up on TNT, when X-Pac showed up AND badmouthed and shot down both Hogan and Bischoff on Raw, it just seemed like we were watching something huge |
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Raider
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Post by Raider on Mar 23, 2012 22:50:40 GMT -5
I understand where you are coming from, but at the time the WWE did have the Light Heavyweight Championship and contenders for that title as well as other smaller guys so I don't give X-Pac all the credit for it. But for the fact that he came in and joined DX was a huge deal. He played a big part in the DX/ Nation feud as well and I think that he showed that smaller guys could get over.
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Johnny Lawrence - Cobra Kai
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Post by Johnny Lawrence - Cobra Kai on Mar 23, 2012 23:58:49 GMT -5
another thing - it was one of the big turning points of the Monday Night War, when for once a big WCW star decided to jump ship to the WWF, instead of the other way around.... this is what I was coming to post, the fact is we were so used to guys showing up on TNT, when X-Pac showed up AND badmouthed and shot down both Hogan and Bischoff on Raw, it just seemed like we were watching something huge Agree 100% with you guys. Waltman going from WCW to WWF was so critical from a perception standpoint. After a seemingly never-ending rush of "name" superstars going from WWF to WCW and the yet-to-be-disproven WCW bragging point that they were where the big stars wanted to be, Waltman turned the tide of perception (and as the saying goes, perception is reality). For the first time in years, it was actually conceivable (to fans and talent alike) that the WWF just might be the preferred "place to be." The fact that he came in to a decent push and strong fan reception had to be encouraging too. It was a big momentum-builder on top of Austin's success and the transformation of The Rock into someone fans actually enjoyed watching. And to think Waltman wouldn't have left WCW if Bischoff hadn't fired him while he was injured. Bischoff basically gift wrapped him for the WWF. For all the money he spent on talent he didn't need, this was one example of Bischoff releasing someone he really should have kept. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2012 3:43:21 GMT -5
yes all great points.its defo huge that Waltman was the first go to "go back" to Vince.......like a say a HUGE turning point.
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Raine
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Post by Raine on Mar 24, 2012 14:36:12 GMT -5
He was the first "big" name to go back in the MNW's, but was only taken back because of the rebuilding of DX thing for me, if Shawn's back weren't injured, I don't know if Vince would have taken him back. He was fired by WCW after all, not as if he left because he had enough of Bischoff.
The real 1st big one didn't happen til February 1999 for me (Big Show) then in July 1999 (Jericho) as both of those guys were made by WCW and defected because they'd had enough
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2012 18:21:31 GMT -5
I think Marc Mero was the first "big" name to go from WCW to WWF during the Monday Night Wars. He really helped turn the tide.
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Post by cordless2016 on Mar 24, 2012 20:03:38 GMT -5
I agree that Waltman coming to the WWF was a huge momentum changer during the MNWs, but I think what really sealed it and the climax of it all was Waltman actually recieving a PPV main event match w/ The Rock for the world title. Waltman had redubted, which was a big deal, but he mostly remained in the mid-card from 1998. When he actually recieved a world title shot on a PPV, it really was a big surprised to see Vince committed to pushing younger mid-carders. Believe it or not, there was a time people actually thought that Waltman would win a world title before HHH back in 1998. When he got a few main events matches, thats when I think it really struck the WCW mid-carders that there was an opportunity for them in the WWF.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2012 8:17:01 GMT -5
yeah another good point there.....
also Waltman would have been taken back.it was nothing to do with HBK going out-he and the NAO were always in after WM14.it just changed the manner of his intro.
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Post by cordless2016 on Mar 25, 2012 8:32:05 GMT -5
yeah another good point there..... also Waltman would have been taken back.it was nothing to do with HBK going out-he and the NAO were always in after WM14.it just changed the manner of his intro. Always bugged me that HBK was out during the "DX Army" run. For as much of an ass HBK was in real life, I loved his cocky heel character from 1997-1998, and wish he had been around for the height of DX's popularity. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2012 9:30:29 GMT -5
same here man......the DX Army formation and face turn was ALWAYS planned and having HBK be in that mix as his bunghole self(which would have got him over like rover again)would have been excellent.
plus it may not have effected anything.Rock and Foley could still have went tot he top and HHH could still have betrayed DX and maybe feuded with HBK.
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Post by cordless2016 on Mar 25, 2012 9:47:05 GMT -5
same here man......the DX Army formation and face turn was ALWAYS planned and having HBK be in that mix as his bunghole self(which would have got him over like rover again)would have been excellent. plus it may not have effected anything.Rock and Foley could still have went tot he top and HHH could still have betrayed DX and maybe feuded with HBK. Exactly. Alot of people feel a lot of guys wouldn't have recieved the pushes they did had HBK been around, but I disagree. Rock was still on his way to becoming one of the biggest stars of all time whether HBK was there or not, and Foley was still the loveable-underdog that everyone wanted to see win. And instead of attacking X-Pac at WM15 and turning heel, HHH could have attacked HBK instead. Its been well noted that Shawn tried holding down guys like Rocky in 1997, but he had so much talent that I highly doubt HBK would have been able to prevent his huge rise. |
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Raine
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Post by Raine on Mar 25, 2012 10:05:44 GMT -5
HBK & HHH was set to feud sometime in 1998 after WM14, thats why they had Hunter say about HBK "dropping the ball" on the RAW X-Pac returned, as it planted the seeds for the feud when Shawn returned, unfortunately HBK was out for 4 years before that feud actually started.
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-=[ CRuSH ]=-
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Post by -=[ CRuSH ]=- on Mar 25, 2012 10:26:09 GMT -5
I love XPac and his redebut will always be one of my favourite MNW moments
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jakksking1
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Post by jakksking1 on Mar 25, 2012 11:36:23 GMT -5
I don't know guys, I think we are overestimating Waltman's importance. Waltman didn't really jump to the WWF so much as WCW let him go and he had to go to the WWF. Don't get me wrong, it was cool when he redebuted on Raw. He was part of DX, but was easily the weakest member at the time. HHH was a rising star. The NOA were becoming one of the greatest tag teams of all time. Chyna was kicking men's asses and getting mainstream attention. Waltman was feuding with D'Lo Brown and a non-wrestler. His best work during that time was with Kane, and it took over a year after his redebut to get saddled with him.
Problem is, he really didn't get pushed. He was feuding for the European Championship, which no one cared about. I dont think smaller guys in WCW needed any more hints that Vince was willing to push non-muscle heads. Bret Hart, HBK and Steve Austin had been the top men in the business for the previous 5 years leading up to 1998. I dont think Waltman fighting D'Lo really sent any messages to WCW wrestlers.
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