jakksking1
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Post by jakksking1 on Feb 7, 2012 10:29:21 GMT -5
Not debating their chemistry. One team is considered one of the 2 or 3 best in wrestling history. They other was pretty good, as you said. The point being how the internet overrates Hart beyond belief. Who says? I thought the Road Warriors were awesome, arguably the greatest tag team gimmick of all time, but Bulldog and Owen could out wrestle them with their eyes closed. Same goes for the Bulldogs and Hart Foundation against Demolition in the 80's poll. Let me ask you something, who was better Hulk Hogan or Bret Hart? Better at what you ask? Charisma, wrestling, popularity? How do you gauge these things? Outside of money, which is the only definitive truth in wrestling, the rest is just opinion and interpretation. Perspective. So yes, in my opinion, and in the 1990's, Owen and Bulldog >>> Legion of Doom. Prove me wrong. Its hard to prove an opinion wrong. I think Bret Hart is an infinitly better wrestler than Hogan.... Once again, i'm not saying Hart/Bulldog are bad. They had a ton of really crappy feuds, and a good one for a couple months with the hart Foundation. If we are just going to judge the tag team on wrestling talent, then wouldn't HBK/Austin be winning that poll? 2 of the greatest still in their prime before injuries..... It is just really striking that a mid 90's tag team that had only a couple of feuds and PPV matches, and most were subpar (ESPECIALLY before 1997), is beating the Road Warriors and Steiner Brothers. And a lot of people say the Road Warriors are the greatest ever. But of course, its a valid opinion, just like yours |
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Post by cordless2016 on Feb 7, 2012 21:42:04 GMT -5
To me, Owen deserves all the praise that he gets. Not only was he one of the top 3 in-ring performers for the WWF in the mid-late 90's(Bret and HBK are the other two), but he was also the #1 heel in the company in 1994. The guy had all the talent in the world. He could wrestle as good as Bret and could play the heel role to perfection. The guy was the total package. If not for Austin holding a grudge against Owen, who knows how big he could have been in 1998 when playing the "Lone Hart" gimmick.
To this day it still puzzles me why Vince put the title on Backland in 1994 instead of Owen. Most people I've talked too feel the same way. If Vince wanted to push Diesel, Owen could have won the title at Survivor Series and then put over Diesel at WM11.
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Bullgod
Main Eventer
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Post by Bullgod on Feb 8, 2012 6:51:16 GMT -5
Overrated
Bob Backlund - I think he's a fantastic wrestler but really don't think he should have beat Billy Graham for the title based on Billy Grahams run and how well things were going, I don't think he was ever really world champion material, but I take nothing away from him as an in ring performer.
Triple H - People say how he's one of the greatest in ring performers of all time, however I fail to see it, I think alot of wrestlers careers have been ruined through his hogging the spotlight throughout 2000-2006. The real question you would need to ask is would he have as many title reigns and pushes if he wasn't married to Stephanie McMahon and playing political games?
Kevin Nash - Okay, nobody has ever given Nash a high rating as a wrestler, however Nash and other people have always credited Kevin Nash as a huge draw in wrestling. Personally I think the only time Nash has ever drawn money is when he's with the Clique, nWo, or Wolfpack. I don't think Nash is able to draw money on his own and has gotten to the top and drawn money by riding other peoples coattails, weather it be Hogan, Michaels, or Triple H etc if I remember when the Wolfpack was formed, that all started from Nash riding Randy Savage's coattails. When he was in TNA by himself nobody ever really gave a crapthe only time anyone ever really cared was during the Main Event Mafia when again he was riding coattails of other main eveters.
Underrated
Hugh Morrus/Bill Demott - One of the best big men there is, I really think both WCW and WWE could have done more to push him. I liked his laughing man character in WCW. I really expected him to do more in WWE but just got burried like most WCW talent. I think Bill had the look, the charasma and the talent to make it alot further than he did.
Perry Saturn - A fantastic worker, his feud with Raven in WCW was so hot at the time, I was more into that at the time than I was the nWo. Not just that but you can look at Perry Saturn and think wow, this guy is gonna f**k someone up. The guy had very little success in WWE, they never gave him the credit he deserved and the whole angle with Moppy was horrible, I think he could have done alot more in WWE.
Jerry Lynn - His time in WWE was a joke, he was so amazing in the ring and never missed a step, they just used him on Sunday night Heat. If WWE kept him round longer I would have given anything to see him on PPV against people like Jericho, Michaels, Angle, Benoit, Guerrero and more, Jerry Lynn could have torn the house down with those guys and its just such a shame how he was used. WWE waisted Jerry Lynns talents in what could have been some of WWE's greatest matches of all time.
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Post by Emerald Enthusiast on Feb 8, 2012 7:01:53 GMT -5
GREAT TOPIC!!!
Overrated:
1. The Ultimate Warrior. He had great energy and a great look, but he was undertrained and uncoordinated. His interviews were usually terrible and his matches were a train wreck.
2. Hulk Hogan. Yes, he was as over as any American wrestler ever got, but he stayed far too long. Watching him as WCW's main event well into his 40s was painful. Watching him come back to the WWF and be pushed again, when he was having mobility problems and looked about 60 years old, was even more excruciating.
3. The Great Khali. I've always said he's the absolute worst piece of talent the biz has ever seen. He's everything that's wrong with pro wrestling: can't speak for himself, can barely walk, no charisma, no memorable moveset, no interesting character traits. I've gone to a few cheap, poorly-run indy shows over the years, and I would take any wrestler I've ever seen in any of those shows over Khail.
Underrated:
1. Owen Hart- His heel turn and feud with Bret was almost Shakespearean. The guy had it all and Vince could have done so much more with that feud and Owen in general.
2. Ricky Steamboat- Another guy who had it all, but only realized a fraction of his potential. He should have held multiple world titles in the late 80s and early 90s but only had flashes of main event greatness.
3. Kofi Kingston- who's surprised that I put him here? The guy oozes charisma and get a pop whereever he goes. He has a fluidity of movement that is extraordinary. He was on the right track in late 2009, but got derailed do to backstage politics. His best work is left undone. The question is whether WWE give him another chance some day?
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Post by cordless2016 on Feb 8, 2012 10:22:20 GMT -5
Surprised that some people are saying Nash is overrated. His terrible in-ring run in WCW has given him a bad reputation, but even Bret Hart has said that Nash was one of the better big men hes worked w/. As Diesel, Nash had some classics w/ Hart, HBK, Razor, Undertaker, and Bulldog. During his short return in 2003, I think that his HIAC match w/ HHH was one of the best HIAC ever. Just a brutal match. The guys charisma was great as well.
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Post by punksnotdead on Feb 8, 2012 10:51:43 GMT -5
Surprised that some people are saying Nash is overrated. His terrible in-ring run in WCW has given him a bad reputation, but even Bret Hart has said that Nash was one of the better big men hes worked w/. As Diesel, Nash had some classics w/ Hart, HBK, Razor, Undertaker, and Bulldog. During his short return in 2003, I think that his HIAC match w/ HHH was one of the best HIAC ever. Just a brutal match. The guys charisma was great as well. Agreed. I don't think anyone, including Nash himself, has ever tried to pretend the guy was a 5 star ring general. However, I can say without a doubt that all the Diesel run matches you mentioned were really entertaining to me, specifically his two with Bret, his IYH match with Shawn, and then both his Mania matches in 95 and 96. As far as WCW, he was probably a top 3 draw for almost his entire run imo. The Wolfpack was insanely over, and Nash was the guy. Nash was more popular than Sting at that time imo. And I love his HIAC match from Bad Blood too. I was honestly hoping he would get a title run in 03, even if it was HBK 02-esque. Nash and HBK were the reasons I started watching WWF every single week when I was a kid, so Nash has been one of my favorites since I really started calling myself a wrestling fan. I think the guy was perfect for the business and does a lot of things right. If anything, I think he gets under appreciated as talent because people get carried away with bashing him for his backstage politics. Nash and Scott Steiner were the two top guys in WCW that I absolutely loved that I think people were always too critical of because they didn't just take them at face value. Is what it is, I think Nash was great. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2012 14:14:59 GMT -5
Oh I agree Nash had some great moments/matches from 94-97 but from 98 -2002 it was clear he didnt give one chocolate  about his in ring contributions. but when he did?he was a damn fine worker for his size and limitations.outside of the WWF great moments listed above he had some great matches as one half of the Outsiders too. |
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koreygunz
Main Eventer
Elite Trader
287 Refs in WFClassifieds and counting
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Post by koreygunz on Feb 8, 2012 19:50:24 GMT -5
To me, Owen deserves all the praise that he gets. Not only was he one of the top 3 in-ring performers for the WWF in the mid-late 90's(Bret and HBK are the other two), but he was also the #1 heel in the company in 1994. The guy had all the talent in the world. He could wrestle as good as Bret and could play the heel role to perfection. The guy was the total package. If not for Austin holding a grudge against Owen, who knows how big he could have been in 1998 when playing the "Lone Hart" gimmick. To this day it still puzzles me why Vince put the title on Backland in 1994 instead of Owen. Most people I've talked too feel the same way. If Vince wanted to push Diesel, Owen could have won the title at Survivor Series and then put over Diesel at WM11. Would you have really wanted to see Diesel vs Owen Hart as a Mania main event? |
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Daniel F'n Bryan
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Post by Daniel F'n Bryan on Feb 8, 2012 21:04:47 GMT -5
Oh I agree Nash had some great moments/matches from 94-97 but from 98 -2002 it was clear he didnt give one chocolate about his in ring contributions. but when he did?he was a damn fine worker for his size and limitations.outside of the WWF great moments listed above he had some great matches as one half of the Outsiders too. The Outsiders always had great matches from 96 to 98. Their matches with Harlem Heat and The Steiners are so underrated. Nash is easily 3rd only behind Taker and Kane on the list of top big guys of all time. I dont see how anyone could disagree with that |
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Post by cordless2016 on Feb 8, 2012 22:37:27 GMT -5
To me, Owen deserves all the praise that he gets. Not only was he one of the top 3 in-ring performers for the WWF in the mid-late 90's(Bret and HBK are the other two), but he was also the #1 heel in the company in 1994. The guy had all the talent in the world. He could wrestle as good as Bret and could play the heel role to perfection. The guy was the total package. If not for Austin holding a grudge against Owen, who knows how big he could have been in 1998 when playing the "Lone Hart" gimmick. To this day it still puzzles me why Vince put the title on Backland in 1994 instead of Owen. Most people I've talked too feel the same way. If Vince wanted to push Diesel, Owen could have won the title at Survivor Series and then put over Diesel at WM11. Would you have really wanted to see Diesel vs Owen Hart as a Mania main event? Me personally, yes. I think it would have been just as good as Diesel vs HBK. Even if it was Diesel vs Owen, LT vs Bam Bam would have still have gone on last ;D |
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jakksking1
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Joined on: Feb 2, 2011 14:45:41 GMT -5
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Post by jakksking1 on Feb 8, 2012 22:45:37 GMT -5
Oh I agree Nash had some great moments/matches from 94-97 but from 98 -2002 it was clear he didnt give one chocolate about his in ring contributions. but when he did?he was a damn fine worker for his size and limitations.outside of the WWF great moments listed above he had some great matches as one half of the Outsiders too. The Outsiders always had great matches from 96 to 98. Their matches with Harlem Heat and The Steiners are so underrated. Nash is easily 3rd only behind Taker and Kane on the list of top big guys of all time. I dont see how anyone could disagree with that When you say big guy are you talking tall or big? Cause if we are talking big guys, i'm going to venture a guess that most in this thread (by looking at the comments) would put Vader easily in front of Kevin Nash |
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Post by cordless2016 on Feb 8, 2012 23:20:01 GMT -5
The Outsiders always had great matches from 96 to 98. Their matches with Harlem Heat and The Steiners are so underrated. Nash is easily 3rd only behind Taker and Kane on the list of top big guys of all time. I dont see how anyone could disagree with that When you say big guy are you talking tall or big? Cause if we are talking big guys, i'm going to venture a guess that most in this thread (by looking at the comments) would put Vader easily in front of Kevin Nash I never really got into Vader. His moonasault was impressive, but Bam Bam could do it as well. His character was bland but I did like his stiff style. I was pulling for Vader to go over HBK at SS96. Couldn't stand HBK in 1996. |
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Daniel F'n Bryan
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Post by Daniel F'n Bryan on Feb 9, 2012 1:45:45 GMT -5
The Outsiders always had great matches from 96 to 98. Their matches with Harlem Heat and The Steiners are so underrated. Nash is easily 3rd only behind Taker and Kane on the list of top big guys of all time. I dont see how anyone could disagree with that When you say big guy are you talking tall or big? Cause if we are talking big guys, i'm going to venture a guess that most in this thread (by looking at the comments) would put Vader easily in front of Kevin Nash I was leaning more towards high as tall guys are usually horrible in the ring ala Andre, Khali, Gonzalez, Reese, ect. But Taker, Kane, Nash, and Sid were always good in the ring IMO. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2012 8:51:03 GMT -5
when I was talking about Nash being good for his "size and limitations" I was talking about his height.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2012 8:56:36 GMT -5
To me, Owen deserves all the praise that he gets. Not only was he one of the top 3 in-ring performers for the WWF in the mid-late 90's(Bret and HBK are the other two), but he was also the #1 heel in the company in 1994. The guy had all the talent in the world. He could wrestle as good as Bret and could play the heel role to perfection. The guy was the total package. If not for Austin holding a grudge against Owen, who knows how big he could have been in 1998 when playing the "Lone Hart" gimmick. . so does everyone think Austins(legit)gripe with Owen was the only reason he didnt go anywhere in 98? If so Im VERY suprised.if Austin didnt want Owen anywhere near his programs why was he on team Austin at No Way Out of Texas? quite frankly Owen had MUCH bigger issues in Vinnie land in 98.I dont think Vince needed any persuasion to bury him in the mid card. I doubt very much it was Austins idea to humiliate Owen and put him in the NOD. also Austins program throughout 98 was with McMahon and his stooges excpet for the Undertaker whose program with Austin was part of his slow heel turn. are we to believe Owen was gonna be one of Vinnies stooges?nah. |
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Post by punksnotdead on Feb 9, 2012 9:10:17 GMT -5
Would you have really wanted to see Diesel vs Owen Hart as a Mania main event? Me personally, yes. I think it would have been just as good as Diesel vs HBK. Even if it was Diesel vs Owen, LT vs Bam Bam would have still have gone on last ;DAin't that a bitch, what a gong show that whole thing was, and I think Bam Bam is the best big man (not to be confused with tall man) in WWF history. I like LT too but man that should have been in the middle of the card, or at least before the title match. But as far as Owen, I agree. That was the point I brought up originally about how I could never understand why he wasn't made champion in 94. He was the hottest heel in the company going against Bret. Why not just have Backlund be in his corner and just screw Bret for the title at Survivor Series?? It made no sense to me why they reversed the roles. And Backlund was AWFUL at the time. Even if they wanted Diesel to take the title into Mania, they could of had him beat Owen at the Rumble. That Diesel vs Bret match from the Rumble meant nothing until they faced off at Survivor Series almost a year later. I don't know how you can argue that Diesel beating Bob Backlund for the title in 13 seconds trumps giving Owen a title run for two months and then having him drop it to Diesel at the Rumble. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2012 9:15:21 GMT -5
yes Bam Bam was the best big man in WWF/E history.
Vader was a close second for me.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2012 12:14:43 GMT -5
I never understood the Backlund title reign either.
Just as easily could have (and should have) been Owen.
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Post by cordless2016 on Feb 9, 2012 13:25:21 GMT -5
Gotta say that the LT vs Bam Bam match was better than the Cena vs Miz match from last year. Atleast Bam Bam and LT put some effort into it and tried to make it interesting. Cena and Miz just took a huge crap on their main event IMO.
As for Backlund, I guess thats one huge mystery we'll never know the real reason behind. Seriously, giving the title to Backland, whos last title reign was BEFORE Hogan's first, simply devalued the title IMO. Having Diesel then defeat him in seconds was even worse for the title. Owen was the most over heel in 1994, and after Bret and Owen each had a win over eachother at a big PPV(Owen at WM, Bret at SummerSlam), Owen going over Bret at the Survivor Series w/ their mom throwing in the towel would have given Owen the title win he deserved while also keep Bret strong. Like someone else said, Diesel could have easily gone over Owen at the Royal Rumble, and that still would have given Shawn Michaels his big WM push. Eveybody basically benefits in this(especially Bret, since he wouldn't have had to have sold for a guy who was older than Hogan).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2012 14:20:51 GMT -5
As for Backlund, I guess thats one huge mystery we'll never know the real reason behind. Seriously, giving the title to Backland, whos last title reign was BEFORE Hogan's first, simply devalued the title IMO. Having Diesel then defeat him in seconds was even worse for the title. Owen was the most over heel in 1994, and after Bret and Owen each had a win over eachother at a big PPV(Owen at WM, Bret at SummerSlam), Owen going over Bret at the Survivor Series w/ their mom throwing in the towel would have given Owen the title win he deserved while also keep Bret strong. Like someone else said, Diesel could have easily gone over Owen at the Royal Rumble, and that still would have given Shawn Michaels his big WM push. Eveybody basically benefits in this(especially Bret, since he wouldn't have had to have sold for a guy who was older than Hogan). yup this was defo the way to go.never can understand the Backlund thing either...... |
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