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Post by mikey1974 on Jan 7, 2012 11:51:56 GMT -5
watching some classic stuff today got me thinking...
Duggan - came in hot as a firecracker in 1987 and immediately was in a high-profile feud with the Iron Sheik and Nikolai Volkhoff as Vince was said to be reallt high on him...couple months later,he gets busted along with the Sheik while stopped by cops in Jersey and both get busted for drug possession for cocaine in the car...shortly thereafter several wrestlers have said Vince had a backstage meeting where he announced he had fired the Sheik,and said that he "Loved Duggan,but he screwed up,and was done." ....Duggan disappeared for a bit before returning to win the first Royal Rumble (really,before it became a "big event") ,and was basically mired in the mid-card ranks for his entire first run in the WWF,save for a brief stint as King...
Jake Roberts was on fire during most of his first run with the WWf - at times he was second in popularity only to Hogan...he was supremely over,with his gimmick,his promo's,and his ending almost every match with the appearance of Damian....yet,he never held a title in the WWF,and never reached the Main Event level with anything resembling consistency unless it was a tag match or the Survivor Series...yet history would show a drug and alcohol addiction that would eventually basically lead to his ruin - the first Scott Hall,as it were...
my question is this - do you think Vince had big plans to push these 2 guys into the main event scene,before personal and other problems sabotaged them? or were thay always meant ot be just midcard talent...
history shows Vince had big plans for Duggan before the drug incident...not much is ever said about any long-term plans for Roberts,but he got himself SO over that he became one of the first instances in the WWF of fans forcing a heel to become a face...
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cyantist
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Post by cyantist on Jan 7, 2012 15:51:39 GMT -5
Jake Roberts is probably one of the best heels the industry has ever seen, Even years after he debuted he was still getting major heat (as seen at Summerslam 91) and knew exactly how to piss the people off, imagine what he was like in 87 a year or so after he debuted, too bad he spent too much time getting wasted because Duggan as ridiculous as his character was, was over beyond all recognition with the fans and a major face, the two could've had a fantastic long feud if Duggan didn't get busted with blow and Roberts didn't get pissed too often.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2012 16:13:04 GMT -5
Jake was always content with not having held a title, he felt that it was for guys who needed it to get over.
As for duggan while I loved his energy and gimmick, he never did it for me as a wrestler, i always hated his finishers they came off looking weak, i'm glad he never got to big of a push
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nibs92
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Post by nibs92 on Jan 7, 2012 19:29:17 GMT -5
i suppose the first point would be that the Title wasn't handed around to all and sundry so there was limited people who could hold it.
Duggan was a patriotic character whom the fans loved, but then again so was Hogan and the Hulkster had lots more charisma.
Jake was one of those characters that really didn't need the belt. I couldn't see him holding it either, not at a time when the champion was the face of the whole company. That's just my opinion anyway.
As a side note, i believe that when Duggan and the Sheik were busted, Vince was more angry that the two of them (who were feuding at the time) were caught together, thus breaking kayfabe, rather than them being busted for cocaine and dope.
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jasonphoenix1
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Just when you think you know the answers. I change the questions!
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Post by jasonphoenix1 on Jan 7, 2012 20:10:08 GMT -5
I could have seen Jake taking a title from either Hogan,Savage,Rude or Warrior even and run with it. He never needed a title but I could have seen such a huge feud title run with Jake winning. Jake was probably the best worker in the business and threw it all away. It is sad to see how some of the most talented workers lose they're battles they're demons. Scott Hall is another that was mentioned.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2012 20:16:22 GMT -5
I think both were always destined for the mid card.Vince knew who his top guys were going to be in 88 going forward.
Vinces midcard from 87-92 was effin loaded.nearly every regional main eventer from the 80s was in there.....Vince took all the regional ares top guys and filled his midcard to the brim with them.
Harley Race
Ted Dibiase
Rick Rude
Barry Windham
Curt Hennig
Rick Martel
Greg Valentine
Jake Roberts
Kerry Von Erich
One Man Gang
Ronnie Garvin
Rick Steamboat
Tony Atlas
Mr Wonderful Paul Orndorff
Jim Duggan
Billy Jack Haynes
I could go on all day!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2012 21:11:17 GMT -5
I think both were always destined for the mid card.Vince knew who his top guys were going to be in 88 going forward. Vinces midcard from 87-92 was effin loaded.nearly every regional main eventer from the 80s was in there.....Vince took all the regional ares top guys and filled his midcard to the brim with them. Harley Race Ted Dibiase Rick Rude Barry Windham Curt Hennig Rick Martel Greg Valentine Jake Roberts Kerry Von Erich One Man Gang Ronnie Garvin Rick Steamboat Tony Atlas Mr Wonderful Paul Orndorff Jim Duggan Billy Jack Haynes I could go on all day!! Its crazy how much of a midcard guy harely race was in the wwf  I imagine that if things were like they are today half those guys would have been wwe champ atleast once |
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Post by Nivro™ on Jan 7, 2012 22:06:20 GMT -5
I never could take Duggan very seriously but Jake Roberts as a heel in '92 was  ing ace. I just hate that it was such a short run for him as he headed off to WCW shortly afterwards. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2012 23:33:02 GMT -5
Jake Roberts never had a good body. Vince LOVED bodies in the late 80s when Jake was in his prime.
I was never a Hacksaw fan. I felt his pops were cheap due to the USA stuff and not only did I never get into his character but his ring work felt below average to me as well.
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June
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Post by June on Jan 8, 2012 11:48:36 GMT -5
I hate how the term midcarder is tossed around here. Roberts and Duggan were far from Midcarders, they regularly Maine enter shows on a nightly basis. People tend to forget that the WWF ran 2 sometimes 3 shows a day.
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Post by mikey1974 on Jan 8, 2012 12:21:16 GMT -5
yeah,they main evented house shows, but when it came to TV / PPV time,they were rarely in the main events unless it was like the Rumble or Survivor Series or something...and, unfortunately,most people's exposure to the WWF was what they saw on TV...
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June
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Post by June on Jan 8, 2012 12:45:21 GMT -5
I understand your point about them not maineventing PPV, but the roster was so strong, and they pretty much held the same role as setting heels up for a mainevent run against Hogan.
I feel that a Duggan heel turn during the Gulf War would have been nearly as big as Slaughters, maybe even bigger
Roberts is considered one of the best to never hold the WWF title, and I agree, but the fact that he along with Perfect, Piper, DiBiase, Wonderful, and Rude never held the title only makes that title more pretigous.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2012 13:25:19 GMT -5
I hate how the term midcarder is tossed around here. . it isnt being "tossed around".its a fact. they werent in the main event,they werent in the opening act-they were in the mid card. were they more than that-yes of course-but the fact remains its where they spent their time in WWF and theres nothing wrong with that.just look at the company they were in. |
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Post by Calcifer Boheme on Jan 9, 2012 4:10:19 GMT -5
If they did booking then the same way they have since the late 90s, they would have both been champions. I don't know if Duggan would have reached the world title, but Jake certainly would have.
As I've mentioned on several posts though, WWF in the late 80s was full of main event guys. Nearly that whole card could have been on top any given night and still sold out those buildings. That was by design obviously, and it's part of why WWF got as big as it did. It's also why there are so many people that fans think should have been champions never were.
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Post by aggressiveperfector on Jan 9, 2012 18:37:22 GMT -5
I think both were always destined for the mid card.Vince knew who his top guys were going to be in 88 going forward. Vinces midcard from 87-92 was effin loaded.nearly every regional main eventer from the 80s was in there.....Vince took all the regional ares top guys and filled his midcard to the brim with them. Harley Race Ted Dibiase Rick Rude Barry Windham Curt Hennig Rick Martel Greg Valentine Jake Roberts Kerry Von Erich One Man Gang Ronnie Garvin Rick Steamboat Tony Atlas Mr Wonderful Paul Orndorff Jim Duggan Billy Jack Haynes I could go on all day!! Its crazy how much of a midcard guy harely race was in the wwf I imagine that if things were like they are today half those guys would have been wwe champ atleast once Wasn't the reason Harley Race was only midcard (besides the odd MSG Main Event against Hogan, or his SNME match against Hogan), because of his intestinal problem that plagued him during his whole WWF run? |
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Post by Calcifer Boheme on Jan 10, 2012 23:14:09 GMT -5
That was part of it, but you also have to remember that he was already passed his prime when he started there. I'm sure ehe made a ton of money against Hogan, Duggan, and JYD though.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2012 7:25:31 GMT -5
That was part of it, but you also have to remember that he was already passed his prime when he started there. I'm sure he made a ton of money against Hogan, Duggan, and JYD though. for sure.Harley was past in and never going to be used in any long term main event capacity.he was just a strong name brought in because A)Vince wanted him for Hogans feeding time B)he was a guy with name value that could go. |
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Post by Calcifer Boheme on Jan 12, 2012 1:47:08 GMT -5
Pretty much, and he lived up to that need perfectly. He had some really good matches with Hogan then helped give other guys a good villain to feud with.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2012 12:05:11 GMT -5
Pretty much, and he lived up to that need perfectly. He had some really good matches with Hogan then helped give other guys a good villain to feud with. yup he sure did.he also elevated the Heenan family too.Vince favored Heenan for the NWA guys didnt he? Race Anderson Blanchard Flair |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2012 16:01:05 GMT -5
Roberts could have easily served as a top talent heel in many title situations.
Hacksaw, while extremely over, probably would have spent more time in the main event but can't see him ever holding the gold. If he would have, it wouldn't have lasted long. During that time period, Hogan was the patriotic champion and couldn't be touched.
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