Deleted
Joined on: Apr 27, 2024 11:43:49 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 9:21:43 GMT -5
Nah, he never should have even been in a program with Cena.
|
|
Deleted
Joined on: Apr 27, 2024 11:43:49 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 10:05:16 GMT -5
Here in a few months we will be discussing "Should Rusev have beaten Cena at WRESTLEMANIA?"
|
|
|
Post by Next Man’s Knowing Rock on Dec 21, 2014 10:08:53 GMT -5
Or "why did Rusev get to beat Cena at WrestleMania when Bray Wyatt didn't???!!!!"
|
|
|
Post by marino13 on Dec 21, 2014 10:09:08 GMT -5
Nah, he never should have even been in a program with Cena. I can agree with that. Too much too soon IMO. WWE should have had the first Shield vs Wyatt showdown for WM instead. That match felt like a WM moment.
|
|
Deleted
Joined on: Apr 27, 2024 11:43:49 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 10:14:05 GMT -5
Or "why did Rusev get to beat Cena at WrestleMania when Bray Wyatt didn't???!!!!" Guys to also not beat Cena at WrestleMania: Triple H, Shawn Michaels, Big Show, Edge, JBL, Batista Should they have beaten him? ??
|
|
CodebreakerDX
Superstar
Joined on: Dec 23, 2011 14:54:40 GMT -5
Posts: 830
|
Post by CodebreakerDX on Dec 21, 2014 10:15:00 GMT -5
Yes
|
|
Infinite
Main Eventer
Joined on: Aug 27, 2009 13:49:36 GMT -5
Posts: 2,608
|
Post by Infinite on Dec 21, 2014 10:53:13 GMT -5
The problem is that Wyatt is a tricky dude to book. He's different, so you have to commit all the way to make his character work. This is why feuding him with Cena, a dude who's character they're not exactly eager to take risks with, was a bad call. Wyatt could have lost every match with Cena, and he could have come out of it looking awesome. He wanted to change Cena. He wanted to with the guy to prove a point. But Cena "never gave up" and stayed true to HLR or whatever so Wyatt's mind games (which weren't exactly amazingly booked either) were totally ineffective. He couldn't beat him, he couldn't change him, and he at times very confusingly looked like a chicken crap heel hiding behind his cronies. The Bray Wyatt character demands better than that or it fails.
|
|
jacktunney
Superstar
Joined on: Jan 3, 2012 22:50:33 GMT -5
Posts: 725
|
Post by jacktunney on Dec 21, 2014 12:21:47 GMT -5
Nah, he never should have even been in a program with Cena. I can agree with that. Too much too soon IMO. WWE should have had the first Shield vs Wyatt showdown for WM instead. That match felt like a WM moment. All of this is exactly how I feel
|
|
|
Post by Next Man’s Knowing Rock on Dec 21, 2014 12:41:17 GMT -5
The problem is that Wyatt is a tricky dude to book. He's different, so you have to commit all the way to make his character work. This is why feuding him with Cena, a dude who's character they're not exactly eager to take risks with, was a bad call. Wyatt could have lost every match with Cena, and he could have come out of it looking awesome. He wanted to change Cena. He wanted to with the guy to prove a point. But Cena "never gave up" and stayed true to HLR or whatever so Wyatt's mind games (which weren't exactly amazingly booked either) were totally ineffective. I don't recall him ever even seeming to want to beat Cena. Or anyone. The Bray Wyatt character rarely makes any sense in terms of his motivations and wrestling matches, one of the few times I can recall it making sense is the first Cena match. But I just can't reconcile the stuff Wyatt says with him making pin covers in wrestling matches, his character just seems too far removed from it all.
|
|
|
Post by The Kevstaaa on Dec 21, 2014 12:50:03 GMT -5
The problem is that Wyatt is a tricky dude to book. He's different, so you have to commit all the way to make his character work. This is why feuding him with Cena, a dude who's character they're not exactly eager to take risks with, was a bad call. Wyatt could have lost every match with Cena, and he could have come out of it looking awesome. He wanted to change Cena. He wanted to with the guy to prove a point. But Cena "never gave up" and stayed true to HLR or whatever so Wyatt's mind games (which weren't exactly amazingly booked either) were totally ineffective. I don't recall him ever even seeming to want to beat Cena. Or anyone. The Bray Wyatt character rarely makes any sense in terms of his motivations and wrestling matches, one of the few times I can recall it making sense is the first Cena match. But I just can't reconcile the stuff Wyatt says with him making pin covers in wrestling matches, his character just seems too far removed from it all. Which is kind of what he was saying. Even if Bray didn't WANT to win any match against Cena, he still could've come off well if his mind games worked and he was able to make Cena change into the "monster" that he continually talked about. Even if Cena would've gone that route for the rivalry and turned back to HLR Cena after, it would have made Wyatt look good. Instead, Cena laughed off everything that Bray did, which did nothing good for Bray. I'm okay with Cena winning out of the rivalry if Bray looked better. And before you go to your trademark "Even if Cena made Bray look good, the internet would have complained if Cena won the feud in the end" response, that's fine. People will complain no matter what. Cena should have made Bray look better than he did instead of making everything a joke and not changing in the least. Believe me, Bray's issues with the fact that doesn't seem like a big deal have a lot to do with him and I'm not blaming it all on Cena. But this feud did nothing to help in the least.
|
|
|
Post by Next Man’s Knowing Rock on Dec 21, 2014 13:20:38 GMT -5
I don't recall him ever even seeming to want to beat Cena. Or anyone. The Bray Wyatt character rarely makes any sense in terms of his motivations and wrestling matches, one of the few times I can recall it making sense is the first Cena match. But I just can't reconcile the stuff Wyatt says with him making pin covers in wrestling matches, his character just seems too far removed from it all. Which is kind of what he was saying. Even if Bray didn't WANT to win any match against Cena, he still could've come off well if his mind games worked and he was able to make Cena change into the "monster" that he continually talked about. Even if Cena would've gone that route for the rivalry and turned back to HLR Cena after, it would have made Wyatt look good. Instead, Cena laughed off everything that Bray did, which did nothing good for Bray. Well, he didn't laugh everything off -- the stuff with the kids shook him up temporarily. Bray Wyatt was never going to change Cena permanently, any more than Kane was going to make him "embrace the hate" a couple of years earlier. But that's where a win should mean more, and wins and losses mean nothing to Wyatt. When his whole deal was about changing Cena, he was always going to lose, even if he won the matches. And it's the same with all of his opponents. Chris Jericho didn't change. Dean Ambrose isn't changing. John Cena didn't change. Kane changed into corporate Kane but it didn't seem to have anything to do with Wyatt directly. Daniel Bryan changed for about a week or two then went back to the exact same as before. The nature of the business means that Bray's opponents are almost always going to be unchanged by him, so it's dumb for the character to always focus on that changing/recruiting rather than beating them. He lost to Cena, it meant nothing. He beat Cena, it meant nothing. He lost to Cena, it meant nothing. He lost to Jericho, it meant nothing. He beat Jericho, it meant nothing. He beat Jericho again, it meant nothing. He beat Ambrose, it meant nothing. He lost to Ambrose, it meant nothing. The big problem Bray Wyatt has is that his character's cool, his promos are cool, his entrance is cool... But he never does anything that makes the result of a match seem important. At least in singles -- the Shield vs Wyatts match did come off as very important, but that was basically the two big supertrios finally colliding.
|
|
|
Post by Optimus Prime on Dec 21, 2014 13:20:55 GMT -5
I always thought this was the start of killing a bit of Bray's momentum. I think Bray would have looked like a bigger star coming out with the win, but with Taker losing afterwards, it was best to put more babyfaces over.
|
|
|
Post by cordless2016 on Dec 21, 2014 14:27:22 GMT -5
Like others have said he didn't need to win at WM. It didn't do anything for Cena winning that night but with Brock going over Taker, it was the right move to make.
However, it was the booking over the next 2 months that killed Bray. Bray needed everything including the kitchen sink to beat Cena at Extreme Rules and then lost again at Payback. There was no need to Cena to go over that night. I understand they were building Cena up to be killed by Brock but would it have killed the guy who has been the face of the company for 10 years to lose 2 feuds in a row? It could have been the start of an interesting story where Cena sees all these young guys passing him up, but instead we're in the same spot we've been in since 2005.
|
|
|
Post by Next Man’s Knowing Rock on Dec 21, 2014 15:22:39 GMT -5
I understand they were building Cena up to be killed by Brock but would it have killed the guy who has been the face of the company for 10 years to lose 2 feuds in a row? The Lesnar squash would have had a bit less impact if we'd just seen Cena lose a big feud-ending match to Wyatt, I think... Although at that point, had they taken the belt off Bryan already at Payback? They might still have thought DB was doing the squash job to Brock when they booked the Cena-Bray match to go the way it did so I don't know if SummerSlam had anything to do with it.
|
|
Infinite
Main Eventer
Joined on: Aug 27, 2009 13:49:36 GMT -5
Posts: 2,608
|
Post by Infinite on Dec 21, 2014 15:29:20 GMT -5
Which is kind of what he was saying. Even if Bray didn't WANT to win any match against Cena, he still could've come off well if his mind games worked and he was able to make Cena change into the "monster" that he continually talked about. Even if Cena would've gone that route for the rivalry and turned back to HLR Cena after, it would have made Wyatt look good. Instead, Cena laughed off everything that Bray did, which did nothing good for Bray. Well, he didn't laugh everything off -- the stuff with the kids shook him up temporarily. Bray Wyatt was never going to change Cena permanently, any more than Kane was going to make him "embrace the hate" a couple of years earlier. But that's where a win should mean more, and wins and losses mean nothing to Wyatt. When his whole deal was about changing Cena, he was always going to lose, even if he won the matches. And it's the same with all of his opponents. Chris Jericho didn't change. Dean Ambrose isn't changing. John Cena didn't change. Kane changed into corporate Kane but it didn't seem to have anything to do with Wyatt directly. Daniel Bryan changed for about a week or two then went back to the exact same as before. The nature of the business means that Bray's opponents are almost always going to be unchanged by him, so it's dumb for the character to always focus on that changing/recruiting rather than beating them. He lost to Cena, it meant nothing. He beat Cena, it meant nothing. He lost to Cena, it meant nothing. He lost to Jericho, it meant nothing. He beat Jericho, it meant nothing. He beat Jericho again, it meant nothing. He beat Ambrose, it meant nothing. He lost to Ambrose, it meant nothing. The big problem Bray Wyatt has is that his character's cool, his promos are cool, his entrance is cool... But he never does anything that makes the result of a match seem important. At least in singles -- the Shield vs Wyatts match did come off as very important, but that was basically the two big supertrios finally colliding. I think the best route with Cena, based on the nature of the story being told and the fact that Bray was unlikely to win the feud, was for John to genuinely need to go to "that place" that they always talk about in order to beat Bray. It's a story I genuinely feel would have benefited massively from blood. Imagine Cena just beating the everloving crap out of Bray with a chair and pinning him, but the final shot being something like Bray's bloody face smirking because to him, he won the war. This way literally everyone wins. Cena beat the monster, but Bray proved his point. They go their separate ways, Cena goes back to his status quo (I accept he was never going to permanently change) and Bray gets his bragging rights and credibility as a character actually succeeding in his goal. Obviously they couldn't do this in 2014, but something similar but toned down would have done just fine. I agree with you though that for other feuds, Wyatt needs to give people a reason to care about the result. Yes, it makes his character a shade more generic, but unfortunately "not caring about wins and losses" is a difficult sell in pro wrestling. Cena should have been a one off, or a rarity at least.
|
|
|
Post by greenjack1992 on Dec 21, 2014 15:38:20 GMT -5
Here's the way I look at it:
Ultimately, on a PG WWE wrestling show, it's important for good to overcome evil in the end. I respect that, and I think that any objective wrestling enthusiast needs to respect that as well.
Cena won the feud, as well he should have, but there was nothing for him to ever actually overcome here. Wyatt never posed a genuine threat to Cena because we never saw him get the better of him. Had Wyatt won that initial encounter at WrestleMania (having his first WrestleMania moment in the process against the company's top star) he would have appeared a much bigger threat to Cena, thereby making Cena winning the feud later on all the more engaging and creating a top heel star in Wyatt. He only needed to win that one match and then lose at ER and PB for it to have worked out best for everyone.
However, knowing now that on that night the biggest legend they had on the current roster was about to conclude a twenty two year saga, I can understand why WWE felt the necessity to give the young fans who believe in the super face something to cheer about on the way home from the arena.
|
|
|
Post by Chip on Dec 21, 2014 17:07:38 GMT -5
not at 'Mania...but at least at one of their matches it would have been nice
|
|
|
Post by GreyHaze:Big Bad Booty Daddy on Dec 21, 2014 17:47:50 GMT -5
I think Bray should of won. Now what I don't get is why some people would want 'Taker to lose to Bray but agreed with Cena beating Bray.
|
|
Deleted
Joined on: Apr 27, 2024 11:43:49 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 17:50:36 GMT -5
I think Bray should of won. Now what I don't get is why some people would want 'Taker to lose to Bray but agreed with Cena beating Bray. This x100
|
|
|
Post by cordless2016 on Dec 21, 2014 18:49:38 GMT -5
I understand they were building Cena up to be killed by Brock but would it have killed the guy who has been the face of the company for 10 years to lose 2 feuds in a row? The Lesnar squash would have had a bit less impact if we'd just seen Cena lose a big feud-ending match to Wyatt, I think... Although at that point, had they taken the belt off Bryan already at Payback? They might still have thought DB was doing the squash job to Brock when they booked the Cena-Bray match to go the way it did so I don't know if SummerSlam had anything to do with it. I think cena would have looked fine going into his lesnar feud even if he'd ha e put over bray. Cena could have still won the title at mitb and then won the fatal four way a month later before moving onto brock. I honestly don't think it would have affected the brock squash at all.
|
|