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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2013 21:07:16 GMT -5
Sorry I posted this in the wrong place before.
I really am just interested on what you guys have to say towards this topic. Lebron vs Jordan I respect what Jordan did back in his day, but I think he's way over rated. The league is very different to what it was back then, know the game is more fast paced. Im not sure why everyone continues to bag on Lebron, when clearly your witnessing one of the best players of all time. The reason Jordan won all the rings was because he had a great team! If Jordan was out then the team would pull through and get the win. He almost won a ring with the Cavs, with him dominating the entire season. Lebron has fallen under pressure a few times, but expect Lebron to show up the entire season. But with Jordan he really only shines in clutch moments. So in about 5 more years, I think people will begin how great Lebron really is. So if Lebron keeps playing how he's playing, he will be better.
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Post by Nivro™ on Feb 18, 2013 21:10:29 GMT -5
Michael Jordan Magic Johnson Kobe Bryant Larry Bird
Somewhere after those four, you can start talking about Lebanon James
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2013 21:11:28 GMT -5
Michael Jordan Magic Johnson Kobe Bryant Larry Bird Somewhere after those four, you can start talking about Lebanon James But Lebrons play style is completely different from everyone you named above.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2013 21:22:13 GMT -5
The game maybe faster now but the competition for Jordan back then was greater then this current watered down league.
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jeffro2000
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Post by jeffro2000 on Feb 18, 2013 21:22:36 GMT -5
Agree with Nivro on this one, though I am reluctant to put Kobe above Bird, but he probably does belong there. Lebron has won one Championship right now, and has failed in big games.
You can't begin to argue that Jordan played on better teams, when Lebron loaded up his game, and went to play with 2 other young all stars, one being a top 5 player, or so.
Jordan played on great Defensive teams with Pippen, Grant, and later Rodman. Those guys played D along with Mike, but weren't great scorers. Pippen was a great all around player but I think is overrated especially offensively, not on D though.
You can argue that guys are more athletic today, but they don't play the game the same. Guys would knock you in the mouth back then. You could hand check, and play defense, and control where offensive guys went.
They knew how to play the game, something most don't anymore. Lebron does, and he is successful because of it. AAU ball is crap, one year of college, and ISO NBA is today's game. It is crap compared to those days.
MJ did it with less, and won 72 games one year. He beat other very good teams such as the Pistons, Knicks, Pacers to get to those finals, and there he beat good teams (Lakers, Blazers, Jazz, filled with HOFers.
Lebron is great, and will be, but he lacks the intensity and will that MJ had. MJ refused to lose, Lebron has seem to be content with it at times. He will likely win another title this yr though.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2013 21:26:49 GMT -5
Agree with Nivro on this one, though I am reluctant to put Kobe above Bird, but he probably does belong there. Lebron has won one Championship right now, and has failed in big games. You can't begin to argue that Jordan played on better teams, when Lebron loaded up his game, and went to play with 2 other young all stars, one being a top 5 player, or so. Jordan played on great Defensive teams with Pippen, Grant, and later Rodman. Those guys played D along with Mike, but weren't great scorers. Pippen was a great all around player but I think is overrated especially offensively, not on D though. You can argue that guys are more athletic today, but they don't play the game the same. Guys would knock you in the mouth back then. You could hand check, and play defense, and control where offensive guys went. They knew how to play the game, something most don't anymore. Lebron does, and he is successful because of it. AAU ball is crap, one year of college, and ISO NBA is today's game. It is crap compared to those days. MJ did it with less, and won 72 games one year. He beat other very good teams such as the Pistons, Knicks, Pacers to get to those finals, and there he beat good teams (Lakers, Blazers, Jazz, filled with HOFers. Lebron is great, and will be, but he lacks the intensity and will that MJ had. MJ refused to lose, Lebron has seem to be content with it at times. He will likely win another title this yr though. Its really clear when Lebron loses big games, that he's upset. Exactly theres my point MJ had a great team! Even when Lebron was on the Cavs he dominated and led the team to almost winning it big!
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Post by T R W on Feb 18, 2013 21:31:31 GMT -5
I hate lebron but I hate she people say Jordan refused to lose. He lost a lot.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2013 21:32:55 GMT -5
I hate lebron but I hate she people say Jordan refused to lose. He lost a lot. I also hate when people say Jordan is the best of all time, and how he will never be beaten.
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Post by "Living Legend" Duttanized on Feb 18, 2013 21:41:22 GMT -5
After OKC makes a move to get a low post scorer, I'm confident that KD will surpass Lebron and maybe even Jordan.
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jeffro2000
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Post by jeffro2000 on Feb 18, 2013 21:44:26 GMT -5
No doubt Lebron led Cleveland those years, but the league was crap compared to when MJ played and wasn't getting to the Finals especially the East. The Celtics had 4/5 HOFers, and the Pistons had 4, and a team filled with All Stars. Those teams are a far cry from the Magic, Nets, and even the Piston teams that Lebron was going against.
Of course Jordan lost early in his career, but you can't deny that his last 6 full seasons in the league he won 6 titles, and if it wasn't for the 2 early retirements likely would have added 1/2 more. Can't argue he only showed up in clutch spots either, he won 10 scoring titles.
Sure his teams were great, but it had to be back then, and he was the leader offensively and defensively. He didn't have the help that Lebron does now on Offense, they just could shut you down on defense.
I am not knocking Lebron, he is great, and has the chance to be in the discussion of GOAT. However, that is years away, and it hurts him that he went to a team with a proven star with a title to get his.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2013 21:59:13 GMT -5
No doubt Lebron led Cleveland those years, but the league was crap compared to when MJ played and wasn't getting to the Finals especially the East. The Celtics had 4/5 HOFers, and the Pistons had 4, and a team filled with All Stars. Those teams are a far cry from the Magic, Nets, and even the Piston teams that Lebron was going against. Of course Jordan lost early in his career, but you can't deny that his last 6 full seasons in the league he won 6 titles, and if it wasn't for the 2 early retirements likely would have added 1/2 more. Can't argue he only showed up in clutch spots either, he won 10 scoring titles. Sure his teams were great, but it had to be back then, and he was the leader offensively and defensively. He didn't have the help that Lebron does now on Offense, they just could shut you down on defense. I am not knocking Lebron, he is great, and has the chance to be in the discussion of GOAT. However, that is years away, and it hurts him that he went to a team with a proven star with a title to get his. True, I wonder if Jordan was in todays league if he would be as good. I doubt it, the players today are faster, stronger, bigger, more athletic, and smarter about the game of basketball.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2013 22:05:43 GMT -5
After OKC makes a move to get a low post scorer, I'm confident that KD will surpass Lebron and maybe even Jordan. They have Ibaka, who can sometimes make a basket
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Post by "Living Legend" Duttanized on Feb 18, 2013 22:09:59 GMT -5
After OKC makes a move to get a low post scorer, I'm confident that KD will surpass Lebron and maybe even Jordan. They have Ibaka, who can sometimes make a basket Ibaka wasn't worth a league max, they need a formidable low post presence in that spot. Preferably Greg Oden if he wants to get his crap together.
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Post by Nivro™ on Feb 18, 2013 22:14:35 GMT -5
Michael Jordan Magic Johnson Kobe Bryant Larry Bird Somewhere after those four, you can start talking about Lebanon James But Lebrons play style is completely different from everyone you named above. Uhhh...what? Lebanon and Magic's game are nearly mirror images of each other. Look at the stat lines from Lebron's 2012 NBA Finals run and look at Magic's from 1987. They're nearly identical. Lebron has the ability to play all 5 positions on the court and probably coach as well. Magic did all that 25-30 years before that in a much more physical NBA. James fans lost the right to use any argument of "Well ______ played on better teams then James" the second James packed his bags and tried to load up to win titles. Not once did guys like MJ, Magic or Bird think about teaming up and trying to rape the NBA. They were all too much competitors and wanting to one up each other. They all wanted to be THE BEST. The one time they all did team up they literally raped the world in the 1992 Olympics. Take Jordan off the Bulls and they're a middle of the road playoff team. Just look when he retired, that showed just how important Jordan was to that "great team". When Magic retired in 1991 the Lakers franchise flopped around until signing Shaq and trading for Kobe. Take James off of the Heat and they're still a favorite to win the Eastern Conference. James won his first Title last year against the Thunder. How many "potential" hall of famers were on the Thunder? Possibly Kevin Durant? Sure, Ill give you that. Now lets look at the list of Hall of Famers that guys like Jodan/Magic had to beat to win titles.... JordanJohn Stockton (Utah) Karl Malone (Utah) Gary Payton (Seattle) [Technically not in yet, but probably c/o 2013 Charles Barkley (Phoenix) Clyde Drexler (Portland) Magic Johnson (LA) James Worthy (LA)MagicAdrian Dantley (Detroit) Joe Dumars (Detroit) Isiah Thomas (Detroit) Dennis Rodman (Detroit) Larry Bird (Boston) Kevin McHale (Boston) Robert Parrish (Boston) Bill Walton (Boston) Dennis Johnson (Boston) Julius Erving (Philadelphia)The quality of opponent that Magic and Jordan played are just miles above what James has done. James is great, nobody can or should deny that however he's not the Greatest.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2013 22:21:50 GMT -5
They have Ibaka, who can sometimes make a basket Ibaka wasn't worth a league max, they need a formidable low post presence in that spot. Preferably Greg Oden if he wants to get his crap together. The dude gets injured all the time lol.
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Post by Nivro™ on Feb 18, 2013 22:34:50 GMT -5
Getting away from "Titles won" and "who played with who" lets be honest. Lets look at Individual awards, awards that reflect more on the player and less on the team. Michael Jordan played 11 full seasons in the NBA, yes he had 2 years in Washington and two not even half seasons in Chicago (85 when injured and 94 when return from Baseball). James is currently in his 10th Season I believe. So James is currently 3 years away from matching Jordan's time in the NBA. Compare their accomplishments outside of NBA Titles, All Star Games and MVP awards.
Jordan -NBA Defensive Player of the Year -10× NBA scoring champion -3× NBA steals champion -10× All-NBA First Team -9× NBA All-Defensive First Team -NBA Defensive Player of the Year
James -NBA scoring champion -6× All-NBA First Team -4× NBA All-Defensive First Team
James is young enough where he *could* catch and/or pass Jordan in a lot of accomplishments but it's going to take him much longer in a much softer NBA to do it. Jordan might not physically be the size of Lebron but Jordan absolutely dominated the NBA in its Golden years.
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jeffro2000
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Post by jeffro2000 on Feb 18, 2013 22:37:15 GMT -5
Nivro further stated what I said about the Competition back then. It is not debatable at all. Don't forget the teams Jordan had to beat to get to the Finals also: Pistons, Very good Knicks teams, and Pacers teams with Miller, Jackson, Smits, Davis's.
You say guys are faster, stronger, bigger, smarter today, but they aren't. They are bigger at certain positions, but Jordan played during a center driven era, and there were great Centers then. There are Zero now.
Players damn sure aren't smarter now. Very few know how to play the game. Just look how we struggle in Intl play against inferior teams. Sure we have been winning recently, but not by blowouts. Nobody can defend a pick and roll any more. Lebron does know how to play, and a key part to his success.
The game was so much better defensively back then, rules were different too. Jordan would not be defensible with today's rules. Just as Wilt wasn't back in the day, so they changed the rules.
Lebron is smart, and maybe the most physically gifted guy ever along with Jordan/Shaq. He can score at will, but chooses not to. That is why he is a lot like Magic. He will go down as great, but never the greatest because of the era he is in. No defense, little understanding of the game, and weak competition.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2013 22:47:37 GMT -5
Nivro further stated what I said about the Competition back then. It is not debatable at all. Don't forget the teams Jordan had to beat to get to the Finals also: Pistons, Very good Knicks teams, and Pacers teams with Miller, Jackson, Smits, Davis's. You say guys are faster, stronger, bigger, smarter today, but they aren't. They are bigger at certain positions, but Jordan played during a center driven era, and there were great Centers then. There are Zero now. Players damn sure aren't smarter now. Very few know how to play the game. Just look how we struggle in Intl play against inferior teams. Sure we have been winning recently, but not by blowouts. Nobody can defend a pick and roll any more. Lebron does know how to play, and a key part to his success. The game was so much better defensively back then, rules were different too. Jordan would not be defensible with today's rules. Just as Wilt wasn't back in the day, so they changed the rules. Lebron is smart, and maybe the most physically gifted guy ever along with Jordan/Shaq. He can score at will, but chooses not to. That is why he is a lot like Magic. He will go down as great, but never the greatest because of the era he is in. No defense, little understanding of the game, and weak competition. Clearly LBJ is the best of this current era.
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jeffro2000
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Post by jeffro2000 on Feb 18, 2013 22:57:57 GMT -5
Clearly LBJ is the best of this current era. Yes he is, and when all is said and done will likely be regarded as a top 3 all time player. He is phenomenal, and could do more than what he does some nights. He is beyond gifted, and can still accomplish a lot. They could win 5 straight titles possibly if they stay together. He hurt his legacy by going there though. He could still win 6-7 titles though. If you swap he and Jordan, it is possible Lebron wins just as much back in the day. It is just that Jordan came first, and the game was more difficult then to win, score, etc. Also have to take into account that LBJ got an earlier start, and thus far hasn't retired twice prematurely. This discussion will rage on for decades, and likely get more compelling. Sorry for being so long winded on the topic.
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Post by "Living Legend" Duttanized on Feb 18, 2013 23:23:37 GMT -5
I'd just like to argue one thing, taking James off the Heat would not leave the Heat as a favorite to win the Eastern Conference. A domino effect would occur and more than likely a lot of the depth players would look elsewhere for more playing time and with powerhouses emerging from Indiana, Chicago, New York, Brooklyn and possibly Cleveland, the Heat would be more in the same spot the Lakers are in this year.
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