Mattel WWE From the Vault 1 RSC Ex Special Edition Cena Vid!

[Deleted]

Mar 11, 2024 16:01:31 GMT -5 AxelSmackdown said:

maybe it’s time to lock the thread

Sad part is, there’s no discussion about the actual figures for pre-order in here anymore.

[voicesinmyhead]

Mar 11, 2024 16:57:14 GMT -5 crush said:

Mar 11, 2024 15:48:18 GMT -5 voicesinmyhead said:

Mattel is a “third party” to the debate versus the two collector mindsets. They’re obviously the ones providing the toys but they aren’t part of people who think these shouldn’t appreciate versus people that do. So you “fundamentally missed” my point there.

Also, I’ve already explained why comic books and TCG are bad comparisons to this toy line even though you’ve claimed to have read everything I’ve said. There’s value in first printings. There’s value in “originals” when it comes to comic books, tradings cards, vinyl records etc. That doesn’t necessarily carry over to Mattel’s wrestling figures when a large section of the fanbase is made of loose collectors. The packaging only matters to MOC collectors and even that is a super small subset of a niche market. A loose collector would buy the cheaper, upgraded rerelease without any hesitation over an older, less articulated, higher priced version. No one grades reprints of comics. They grade originals. Charizard 2nd edition doesn’t hold a candle to the 1st edition. However, the rerelease of Bubba Dudley is going to tank the value of the original and no one will buy that anymore. It’s that simple. To argue that any further is to simply ignore reality. We are a very niche group and the way wrestling figures values are created/ perceived is not comparable to comics, trading cards, etc.

And you again use the word expectation. No one ever said they expect something to be rare or make them money. But to say that it’s a fundamental difference from what they are is what I have been arguing from the start. Just because they are “toys” and “action figures” doesn’t mean they can’t be collectible and can’t increase in value. That’s like saying a stamp cannot be collectible or make money because that’s fundamentally against what they’re made for. Humans are weird in that we put value on the silliest things but just because something is a toy doesn’t mean it can’t be considered more than that to someone else.

Mattel can't be looked at as a third party in that philosophical debate because they control the production and therefore control the debate. They could announce tomorrow they're remaking every figure they've ever made in unlimited quantitates making the whole philosophy debate completely mood.

I've read what you've written about comics. A reprint of a comic and a reprint of an action figure in this case is fundamentally the same thing. Both are mass-produced items, and unless a specifically numbered as such limited variant, there's no reason to ever assume one can't be reprinted at the whim of the company that produced them.

Quite frankly, you're argument about loose and MOC is a bit weak, considering that MOC figures the versions that appreciate in value. Yes, a loose collector would likely buy the new figure over paying a secondary market price, but that loose collector likely isn't going to pay an exorbitant secondary market price for a MOC figure to open. Not to mention the fact that, despite how niche wrestling collecting is, MOC packaging differences are absolutely a bigger part of the hobby than you're letting. there's a reason English language Hasbros or those without the SummersSlam ad go for more than those in other languages or without the ad.

No one is saying that toys can't be "collectible" or "increase in value." Of course they can. What they are saying is that toys (and yes stamps, and comic books, and whatever other collectibles you want to bring up) are (unless noted by a specific number created) mass produced items whose value and rarity comes from what is essentially artificial scarcity. Any mass-produced item can conceivably be reproduced at any time, with earlier printings of said objects generally but-not-always raining higher value than later reprints.

And trust me, I put plenty of emotional value on my collection, and consider them "more" to me than w2hat other people would consider them. However, I garner that value from what they mean to me personally, not any precarious financial value they may have or perceived "rarity" I may believe they have because I was able to acquire them before others could.

1. No they're not the same. A reprint of Walking Dead #1 does not drop the value of the original. However, a reissue of DM Undertaker will absolutely kill the secondary market value. Same box or not. That's a fact. It is irrefutable.

2. You're visibly showing your lack of knowledge on how comics work. There is a barcode on the bottom that distinguishes the first run of the comic. For example, "00111" represents first issue, non-variant, first printing. That barcode on a classic comic garners way, way more money than any future run of the same issue. The collectors care about the first run because that is the only one that'll potentially gain value and, quite frankly, its the original. This doesn't translate to wrestling figures. The only difference between the comic issues is a barcode/ release date. With figures, a rerelease could mean updates and a cheaper way to get the figure. It makes the older one not as important or desired. I guarantee if they did a reprint of X-Men #1 tomorrow, it wouldn't even touch the market value of the original. However, if they release the Road Warriors (meaning same colors as the originals), the original releases would drop significantly. Loose and MOC.

3. Comparing Hasbros to Mattel's is downright silly. Hasbro's are considered classic collectibles at this point, where original packaging matters. No one cares about the original box of Bubba Ray Dudley versus this new one. And this is coming from a MOC collector. There are only specific cases where the box would matter and that is basically limited to exclusives. Any mainline elite rerelease is not treasured for its box. Look at recent rereleases like Legends series 10 DDP and Hall of Champions Undertaker is GH series 2. Once those were rereleased, who in their right mind was going to eBay to pay more money for the originals because of the box. No one. They saw the same figure, updated or not, at a way cheaper price. That's it. It is that simple for Mattel wrestling figures. We aren't talking Hasbros or LJNs. That doesn't apply.

4. My argument about loose and MOC is not "weak" when you literally reiterated that a loose collector would buy the new version. There are certainly less MOC collectors than loose collectors, so you are already limiting the number of people who would care about the original packaging. Now limit it even further to those that would only need the original MOC for say signing purposes or completion purposes. Who is randomly buying a MOC Bubba for completion purposes of Elite wave 45? I'm sure those number are low or nonexistent. Now that the same Bubba and D-Von are being released, who really needs the old ones? Absolutely destroyed the market.

5. And that's cool you value your collection, but it's like you're pretending that figures don't gain perceived value and that it is not nice when they do. I don't care if it is not your priority. The point is it may be the priority for some. Why is that a problem? That is what I am debating. Cool its not a priority for you. To others it is and there is absolutely no respect for those that do care about the value (or perceived value of their collection). I am not sitting here telling you are wrong for having only emotional value, but you are telling me I am wrong for considering their potential market value. As I said numerous times, I am not a scalper and I buy my figures for myself. However, it is nice to see something you own appreciate in value and it sucks when it loses value. I have sentimental attachment to plenty of figures that would probably be worthless on the secondary market. But for other figures that may not have sentimental attachment, or are worth something, I like to see them continue to be worth something.

[crush]

Mar 11, 2024 18:10:18 GMT -5 voicesinmyhead said:

Mar 11, 2024 16:57:14 GMT -5 crush said:

Mattel can't be looked at as a third party in that philosophical debate because they control the production and therefore control the debate. They could announce tomorrow they're remaking every figure they've ever made in unlimited quantitates making the whole philosophy debate completely mood.

I've read what you've written about comics. A reprint of a comic and a reprint of an action figure in this case is fundamentally the same thing. Both are mass-produced items, and unless a specifically numbered as such limited variant, there's no reason to ever assume one can't be reprinted at the whim of the company that produced them.

Quite frankly, you're argument about loose and MOC is a bit weak, considering that MOC figures the versions that appreciate in value. Yes, a loose collector would likely buy the new figure over paying a secondary market price, but that loose collector likely isn't going to pay an exorbitant secondary market price for a MOC figure to open. Not to mention the fact that, despite how niche wrestling collecting is, MOC packaging differences are absolutely a bigger part of the hobby than you're letting. there's a reason English language Hasbros or those without the SummersSlam ad go for more than those in other languages or without the ad.

No one is saying that toys can't be "collectible" or "increase in value." Of course they can. What they are saying is that toys (and yes stamps, and comic books, and whatever other collectibles you want to bring up) are (unless noted by a specific number created) mass produced items whose value and rarity comes from what is essentially artificial scarcity. Any mass-produced item can conceivably be reproduced at any time, with earlier printings of said objects generally but-not-always raining higher value than later reprints.

And trust me, I put plenty of emotional value on my collection, and consider them "more" to me than w2hat other people would consider them. However, I garner that value from what they mean to me personally, not any precarious financial value they may have or perceived "rarity" I may believe they have because I was able to acquire them before others could.

1. No they're not the same. A reprint of Walking Dead #1 does not drop the value of the original. However, a reissue of DM Undertaker will absolutely kill the secondary market value. Same box or not. That's a fact. It is irrefutable.

2. You're visibly showing your lack of knowledge on how comics work. There is a barcode on the bottom that distinguishes the first run of the comic. For example, "00111" represents first issue, non-variant, first printing. That barcode on a classic comic garners way, way more money than any future run of the same issue. The collectors care about the first run because that is the only one that'll potentially gain value and, quite frankly, its the original. This doesn't translate to wrestling figures. The only difference between the comic issues is a barcode/ release date. With figures, a rerelease could mean updates and a cheaper way to get the figure. It makes the older one not as important or desired. I guarantee if they did a reprint of X-Men #1 tomorrow, it wouldn't even touch the market value of the original. However, if they release the Road Warriors (meaning same colors as the originals), the original releases would drop significantly. Loose and MOC.

3. Comparing Hasbros to Mattel's is downright silly. Hasbro's are considered classic collectibles at this point, where original packaging matters. No one cares about the original box of Bubba Ray Dudley versus this new one. And this is coming from a MOC collector. There are only specific cases where the box would matter and that is basically limited to exclusives. Any mainline elite rerelease is not treasured for its box. Look at recent rereleases like Legends series 10 DDP and Hall of Champions Undertaker is GH series 2. Once those were rereleased, who in their right mind was going to eBay to pay more money for the originals because of the box. No one. They saw the same figure, updated or not, at a way cheaper price. That's it. It is that simple for Mattel wrestling figures. We aren't talking Hasbros or LJNs. That doesn't apply.

4. My argument about loose and MOC is not "weak" when you literally reiterated that a loose collector would buy the new version. There are certainly less MOC collectors than loose collectors, so you are already limiting the number of people who would care about the original packaging. Now limit it even further to those that would only need the original MOC for say signing purposes or completion purposes. Who is randomly buying a MOC Bubba for completion purposes of Elite wave 45? I'm sure those number are low or nonexistent. Now that the same Bubba and D-Von are being released, who really needs the old ones? Absolutely destroyed the market.

5. And that's cool you value your collection, but it's like you're pretending that figures don't gain perceived value and that it is not nice when they do. I don't care if it is not your priority. The point is it may be the priority for some. Why is that a problem? That is what I am debating. Cool its not a priority for you. To others it is and there is absolutely no respect for those that do care about the value (or perceived value of their collection). I am not sitting here telling you are wrong for having only emotional value, but you are telling me I am wrong for considering their potential market value. As I said numerous times, I am not a scalper and I buy my figures for myself. However, it is nice to see something you own appreciate in value and it sucks when it loses value. I have sentimental attachment to plenty of figures that would probably be worthless on the secondary market. But for other figures that may not have sentimental attachment, or are worth something, I like to see them continue to be worth something.

1. They are the same in that (in the mainstream companies) they are both mass-produced products that a company can rerun at their discretion.

2. I've collected and read comics for over 30 years and worked at a comic site (RIP Comicsverse) for 3. I'm quite familiar with how the industry works. A different box will delineate a reprinted figure the same way a new box will for one of these RSC figures, which is the comp. I've been using from the start. The way comics appreciate in value vs how toys do is never going to be 1 to 1 comparison, which was never the point. The point is that the same what variants/reprints/etc. differentiate form original issues the same way that different boxes differentiate these figures.

(Sidenote: Your Road Warriors analogy actually spells out my biggest issue with the whole argument: Let's take the Elite 30 Hawk and Animal. You're saying that the most recognizable LOD/Road Warriors look (not best in-ring certainly most recognizable) should be kept behind a fabricated third part/secondary market paywall because Mattel did them a decade and almost 80 Elite sets ago. To me that's absurd.)

3. No, Mattels can't be compared to Hasbros yet as far as overall historic importance or value, but you're sidestepping the overall point. MOC Wrestling collectors have been shown to care about packaging. I can pull some Jakks or Mattel examples as well if you'd prefer.

4. But it's the MOC figures that go up exponentially in value, and in-turn that would be the ones that would "lose" value you're championing. Let's use the Dudleys as an example. Looking through sold listings on eBay (both solo and in pairs, loose and carded) it's the carded figures that are selling for triple digits, while most loose sets are in $90s and most loose single figures have fluctuated between the $30 range to the $60-$70 range (Bubba generally seems to go for more than D-Von). Now, I'm sure that there are other prices across the board, people have either overpaid, gotten steals etc. but generally, the jump in value is for MOC figures that are likely being kept MOC, whereas the loose market foes;t have nearly the jump in value form MSRP anyway.

5. I never said it's "not nice" that they gain perceived value, nor do I think it's a "problem" that people consider value. Further more, I am not telling you you're "wrong" for "considering potential market value." Where I do believe you're wrong is believing that potential market value for a mass produced item is going to be stable when by the very nature of a mass-produced item that's an unlikely thing to count on. Even when Mattel isn't doing direct rereleases like this Vault figs, older figures fluctuated based on new product. (For example, RSC Value relates or not, the Elite 2015 Dudleys were going to fall sharply if/when ECW and Attitude Era Dudley Elites hit the market). Overall, I would never tell anyone how they should collect, and I'm not going to judge you for how you find value in your collection. However, all due respect, I also frankly think that Mattel releasing heavily desired looks and overall bettering the line is overall a good thing even if it fuller the feathers of collectors who care about perceived value (whether for selling purposes or simply thatchy like having things others can no longer easily obtain)

[voicesinmyhead]

Mar 11, 2024 20:06:28 GMT -5 crush said:

Mar 11, 2024 18:10:18 GMT -5 voicesinmyhead said:

1. No they're not the same. A reprint of Walking Dead #1 does not drop the value of the original. However, a reissue of DM Undertaker will absolutely kill the secondary market value. Same box or not. That's a fact. It is irrefutable.

2. You're visibly showing your lack of knowledge on how comics work. There is a barcode on the bottom that distinguishes the first run of the comic. For example, "00111" represents first issue, non-variant, first printing. That barcode on a classic comic garners way, way more money than any future run of the same issue. The collectors care about the first run because that is the only one that'll potentially gain value and, quite frankly, its the original. This doesn't translate to wrestling figures. The only difference between the comic issues is a barcode/ release date. With figures, a rerelease could mean updates and a cheaper way to get the figure. It makes the older one not as important or desired. I guarantee if they did a reprint of X-Men #1 tomorrow, it wouldn't even touch the market value of the original. However, if they release the Road Warriors (meaning same colors as the originals), the original releases would drop significantly. Loose and MOC.

3. Comparing Hasbros to Mattel's is downright silly. Hasbro's are considered classic collectibles at this point, where original packaging matters. No one cares about the original box of Bubba Ray Dudley versus this new one. And this is coming from a MOC collector. There are only specific cases where the box would matter and that is basically limited to exclusives. Any mainline elite rerelease is not treasured for its box. Look at recent rereleases like Legends series 10 DDP and Hall of Champions Undertaker is GH series 2. Once those were rereleased, who in their right mind was going to eBay to pay more money for the originals because of the box. No one. They saw the same figure, updated or not, at a way cheaper price. That's it. It is that simple for Mattel wrestling figures. We aren't talking Hasbros or LJNs. That doesn't apply.

4. My argument about loose and MOC is not "weak" when you literally reiterated that a loose collector would buy the new version. There are certainly less MOC collectors than loose collectors, so you are already limiting the number of people who would care about the original packaging. Now limit it even further to those that would only need the original MOC for say signing purposes or completion purposes. Who is randomly buying a MOC Bubba for completion purposes of Elite wave 45? I'm sure those number are low or nonexistent. Now that the same Bubba and D-Von are being released, who really needs the old ones? Absolutely destroyed the market.

5. And that's cool you value your collection, but it's like you're pretending that figures don't gain perceived value and that it is not nice when they do. I don't care if it is not your priority. The point is it may be the priority for some. Why is that a problem? That is what I am debating. Cool its not a priority for you. To others it is and there is absolutely no respect for those that do care about the value (or perceived value of their collection). I am not sitting here telling you are wrong for having only emotional value, but you are telling me I am wrong for considering their potential market value. As I said numerous times, I am not a scalper and I buy my figures for myself. However, it is nice to see something you own appreciate in value and it sucks when it loses value. I have sentimental attachment to plenty of figures that would probably be worthless on the secondary market. But for other figures that may not have sentimental attachment, or are worth something, I like to see them continue to be worth something.

1. They are the same in that (in the mainstream companies) they are both mass-produced products that a company can rerun at their discretion.

2. I've collected and read comics for over 30 years and worked at a comic site (RIP Comicsverse) for 3. I'm quite familiar with how the industry works. A different box will delineate a reprinted figure the same way a new box will for one of these RSC figures, which is the comp. I've been using from the start. The way comics appreciate in value vs how toys do is never going to be 1 to 1 comparison, which was never the point. The point is that the same what variants/reprints/etc. differentiate form original issues the same way that different boxes differentiate these figures.

(Sidenote: Your Road Warriors analogy actually spells out my biggest issue with the whole argument: Let's take the Elite 30 Hawk and Animal. You're saying that the most recognizable LOD/Road Warriors look (not best in-ring certainly most recognizable) should be kept behind a fabricated third part/secondary market paywall because Mattel did them a decade and almost 80 Elite sets ago. To me that's absurd.)

3. No, Mattels can't be compared to Hasbros yet as far as overall historic importance or value, but you're sidestepping the overall point. MOC Wrestling collectors have been shown to care about packaging. I can pull some Jakks or Mattel examples as well if you'd prefer.

4. But it's the MOC figures that go up exponentially in value, and in-turn that would be the ones that would "lose" value you're championing. Let's use the Dudleys as an example. Looking through sold listings on eBay (both solo and in pairs, loose and carded) it's the carded figures that are selling for triple digits, while most loose sets are in $90s and most loose single figures have fluctuated between the $30 range to the $60-$70 range (Bubba generally seems to go for more than D-Von). Now, I'm sure that there are other prices across the board, people have either overpaid, gotten steals etc. but generally, the jump in value is for MOC figures that are likely being kept MOC, whereas the loose market foes;t have nearly the jump in value form MSRP anyway.

5. I never said it's "not nice" that they gain perceived value, nor do I think it's a "problem" that people consider value. Further more, I am not telling you you're "wrong" for "considering potential market value." Where I do believe you're wrong is believing that potential market value for a mass produced item is going to be stable when by the very nature of a mass-produced item that's an unlikely thing to count on. Even when Mattel isn't doing direct rereleases like this Vault figs, older figures fluctuated based on new product. (For example, RSC Value relates or not, the Elite 2015 Dudleys were going to fall sharply if/when ECW and Attitude Era Dudley Elites hit the market). Overall, I would never tell anyone how they should collect, and I'm not going to judge you for how you find value in your collection. However, all due respect, I also frankly think that Mattel releasing heavily desired looks and overall bettering the line is overall a good thing even if it fuller the feathers of collectors who care about perceived value (whether for selling purposes or simply thatchy like having things others can no longer easily obtain)

1. Talk about side-stepping. You found ONE similarity. That does not make them in the least bit comparable. You completely ignored how the original comics value would stay the same while the wrestling figure's value would not. That's the comparison.

2. The point was that reprints may differ from originals like box art on wrestling figures differs from the originals, but the way they affect the secondary market is drastically different. Making them incomparable.

Side-Note: I see nothing wrong with not remaking the Red or Black Road Warriors. Make another attire. LOD 2000 perhaps. Or Ultimates of the Red or Black. Don't do the elites again. That's my opinion. You don't have to like it.

3. Yeah MOC collectors obviously care about packaging, but a MOC Hasbro collector caring about a US version versus an oversees version is very different from a Mattel MOC collector caring about Elite 45 Dudley versus this new From the Vault Dudley. I can't imagine someone that doesn't already have Bubba really caring about having the first one MOC over the new one MOC. Say someone wants to get an elite Bubba signed, they are obviously going to pick the new one since it is updated and cheaper. No one is going to want the old one MOC anymore (unless it is for completion purposes which is very rare).

4. I never once in all of my posts talked about loose figures holding value. Not once. Go back and read them all. I have always been talking about the values of the MOC figures going down in value after the rereleases. I collect MOC and loose, but I only care about the MOC values. You, in your own head, made up a debate about loose prices. Loose figures lose value immediately out of the package just like driving a new car does when you drive off the lot. That value means nothing to me. It is the MOC figures that take an even more substantial hit from these rereleases and that has always been the point. New box or not, it doesn't matter to this community. This community wants things easy and cheap. They are not willing to pay much over retail which is proven by the pages of rebuttal to my posts. MOC UE series 1 Ultimate Warrior is now barely worth retail. MOC Hall of Champions Undertaker is barely over retail. And like I said earlier, I guarantee if SES Punk is rereleased in a future wave, the original RSC exclusive's price will plummet. Different box or not. It won't matter.

5. I never once considered the market to be "stable." I never once said I could "count on" the prices. I have been collecting something whether it is Pokemon, wrestling figures, Funkos, videos games, etc. my whole life. I understand the ebbs and flows of the collecting market. Everything rises and falls similar to the stock market. But my problem is with DIRECT rereleases. I have absolutely no problem with them doing the same character with a different attire. That's a completely different figure then. Not just updates like TrueFX and whatnot. Could new looks still decrease the value of previous releases? Sure. Possibly. Especially with the people in this community. If it is easier to get blue Dudley's then the old red Dudley's, the demand for the red could surely go down. However, that is not the issue. A direct rerelease directly affects the market. Plain and simple. That has been my point from the beginning. No one is going back to the originals just for the box. They'll see updated parts, TrueFX, and a cheaper price point for the same guy with the same look. That DIRECTLY affects the secondary market on that figure. Not indirectly like your example with ECW Dudleys.

There is no reason why they couldn't do these figures in a different color. None at all. I don't care if other people don't already have the red Dudleys. They were completely fair game. No distribution issues. No scalping issues. That's on them. Buy the blue Dudleys then. You can agree with that or not. That is my opinion on the matter and has been my opinion the entire time. I never said no one can get new Dudley's ever, it just doesn't have to be the same Dudleys we already have. And why wouldn't we want a different version. We already have red. I'd buy blue if they made it. But no. We waste out time with red.

[crush]

Mar 11, 2024 20:36:40 GMT -5 voicesinmyhead said:

Mar 11, 2024 20:06:28 GMT -5 crush said:

1. They are the same in that (in the mainstream companies) they are both mass-produced products that a company can rerun at their discretion.

2. I've collected and read comics for over 30 years and worked at a comic site (RIP Comicsverse) for 3. I'm quite familiar with how the industry works. A different box will delineate a reprinted figure the same way a new box will for one of these RSC figures, which is the comp. I've been using from the start. The way comics appreciate in value vs how toys do is never going to be 1 to 1 comparison, which was never the point. The point is that the same what variants/reprints/etc. differentiate form original issues the same way that different boxes differentiate these figures.

(Sidenote: Your Road Warriors analogy actually spells out my biggest issue with the whole argument: Let's take the Elite 30 Hawk and Animal. You're saying that the most recognizable LOD/Road Warriors look (not best in-ring certainly most recognizable) should be kept behind a fabricated third part/secondary market paywall because Mattel did them a decade and almost 80 Elite sets ago. To me that's absurd.)

3. No, Mattels can't be compared to Hasbros yet as far as overall historic importance or value, but you're sidestepping the overall point. MOC Wrestling collectors have been shown to care about packaging. I can pull some Jakks or Mattel examples as well if you'd prefer.

4. But it's the MOC figures that go up exponentially in value, and in-turn that would be the ones that would "lose" value you're championing. Let's use the Dudleys as an example. Looking through sold listings on eBay (both solo and in pairs, loose and carded) it's the carded figures that are selling for triple digits, while most loose sets are in $90s and most loose single figures have fluctuated between the $30 range to the $60-$70 range (Bubba generally seems to go for more than D-Von). Now, I'm sure that there are other prices across the board, people have either overpaid, gotten steals etc. but generally, the jump in value is for MOC figures that are likely being kept MOC, whereas the loose market foes;t have nearly the jump in value form MSRP anyway.

5. I never said it's "not nice" that they gain perceived value, nor do I think it's a "problem" that people consider value. Further more, I am not telling you you're "wrong" for "considering potential market value." Where I do believe you're wrong is believing that potential market value for a mass produced item is going to be stable when by the very nature of a mass-produced item that's an unlikely thing to count on. Even when Mattel isn't doing direct rereleases like this Vault figs, older figures fluctuated based on new product. (For example, RSC Value relates or not, the Elite 2015 Dudleys were going to fall sharply if/when ECW and Attitude Era Dudley Elites hit the market). Overall, I would never tell anyone how they should collect, and I'm not going to judge you for how you find value in your collection. However, all due respect, I also frankly think that Mattel releasing heavily desired looks and overall bettering the line is overall a good thing even if it fuller the feathers of collectors who care about perceived value (whether for selling purposes or simply thatchy like having things others can no longer easily obtain)

1. Talk about side-stepping. You found ONE similarity. That does not make them in the least bit comparable. You completely ignored how the original comics value would stay the same while the wrestling figure's value would not. That's the comparison.

2. The point was that reprints may differ from originals like box art on wrestling figures differs from the originals, but the way they affect the secondary market is drastically different. Making them incomparable.

Side-Note: I see nothing wrong with not remaking the Red or Black Road Warriors. Make another attire. LOD 2000 perhaps. Or Ultimates of the Red or Black. Don't do the elites again. That's my opinion. You don't have to like it.

3. Yeah MOC collectors obviously care about packaging, but a MOC Hasbro collector caring about a US version versus an oversees version is very different from a Mattel MOC collector caring about Elite 45 Dudley versus this new From the Vault Dudley. I can't imagine someone that doesn't already have Bubba really caring about having the first one MOC over the new one MOC. Say someone wants to get an elite Bubba signed, they are obviously going to pick the new one since it is updated and cheaper. No one is going to want the old one MOC anymore (unless it is for completion purposes which is very rare).

4. I never once in all of my posts talked about loose figures holding value. Not once. Go back and read them all. I have always been talking about the values of the MOC figures going down in value after the rereleases. I collect MOC and loose, but I only care about the MOC values. You, in your own head, made up a debate about loose prices. Loose figures lose value immediately out of the package just like driving a new car does when you drive off the lot. That value means nothing to me. It is the MOC figures that take an even more substantial hit from these rereleases and that has always been the point. New box or not, it doesn't matter to this community. This community wants things easy and cheap. They are not willing to pay much over retail which is proven by the pages of rebuttal to my posts. MOC UE series 1 Ultimate Warrior is now barely worth retail. MOC Hall of Champions Undertaker is barely over retail. And like I said earlier, I guarantee if SES Punk is rereleased in a future wave, the original RSC exclusive's price will plummet. Different box or not. It won't matter.

5. I never once considered the market to be "stable." I never once said I could "count on" the prices. I have been collecting something whether it is Pokemon, wrestling figures, Funkos, videos games, etc. my whole life. I understand the ebbs and flows of the collecting market. Everything rises and falls similar to the stock market. But my problem is with DIRECT rereleases. I have absolutely no problem with them doing the same character with a different attire. That's a completely different figure then. Not just updates like TrueFX and whatnot. Could new looks still decrease the value of previous releases? Sure. Possibly. Especially with the people in this community. If it is easier to get blue Dudley's then the old red Dudley's, the demand for the red could surely go down. However, that is not the issue. A direct rerelease directly affects the market. Plain and simple. That has been my point from the beginning. No one is going back to the originals just for the box. They'll see updated parts, TrueFX, and a cheaper price point for the same guy with the same look. That DIRECTLY affects the secondary market on that figure. Not indirectly like your example with ECW Dudleys.

There is no reason why they couldn't do these figures in a different color. None at all. I don't care if other people don't already have the red Dudleys. They were completely fair game. No distribution issues. No scalping issues. That's on them. Buy the blue Dudleys then. You can agree with that or not. That is my opinion on the matter and has been my opinion the entire time. I never said no one can get new Dudley's ever, it just doesn't have to be the same Dudleys we already have. And why wouldn't we want a different version. We already have red. I'd buy blue if they made it. But no. We waste out time with red.

1. Which was the similarity I was talking about to begin with.


2&3. We'll see what happens with the secondary market. I think that stuff like RSC exclusives or the early DX Elites won't see the drop you perceive.

So essentially someone who's been collecting less than a decade should have to settle for the 8 month long LOD 2000 run for retail price or wait for Ultimates just to uphold the value of figures that came out in 2013?

4. "The packaging only matters to MOC collectors and even that is a super small subset of a niche market. A loose collector would buy the cheaper, upgraded rerelease without any hesitation over an older, less
articulated, higher priced version." - What I was responding to, re: loose values.

As for the highlighted part, I really doin't even know what this is supposed to be. Wrestling figures aren't a prize that people should have to work for or want to pay over retail for or etc. They're a product, in this case produced by a multi-billion dollar company. The idea that people should have to, I guess earn them? is very strange to me. Now if they want them, and the only way to get them is the secondary market, it is what it is. But to make it sound like there's something "cheap or easy" about buying a release implies that buying a figure should hard, which is... odd.

FWIW, I'm actuallyy generally aligned with you in looking for new color ways (though I would point out, IIRC there was no other color way worn by the 2015/16 Dudleys) in the line overall. But I simply have no issue with a specific Vault line revealing certain looks.

At the end of the day though, that's what it comes down to. We can keep digging into minutia and etc. back and forth forever, but fundamentally we disagree on the core concept so it's probably best to just ileave the conversation there, at least with the long posts on my end. I do genuinely appreciate the debate, it's been illuminating to see the other point of view if nothing else.

[voicesinmyhead]

Mar 11, 2024 21:32:39 GMT -5 crush said:

Mar 11, 2024 20:36:40 GMT -5 voicesinmyhead said:

1. Talk about side-stepping. You found ONE similarity. That does not make them in the least bit comparable. You completely ignored how the original comics value would stay the same while the wrestling figure's value would not. That's the comparison.

2. The point was that reprints may differ from originals like box art on wrestling figures differs from the originals, but the way they affect the secondary market is drastically different. Making them incomparable.

Side-Note: I see nothing wrong with not remaking the Red or Black Road Warriors. Make another attire. LOD 2000 perhaps. Or Ultimates of the Red or Black. Don't do the elites again. That's my opinion. You don't have to like it.

3. Yeah MOC collectors obviously care about packaging, but a MOC Hasbro collector caring about a US version versus an oversees version is very different from a Mattel MOC collector caring about Elite 45 Dudley versus this new From the Vault Dudley. I can't imagine someone that doesn't already have Bubba really caring about having the first one MOC over the new one MOC. Say someone wants to get an elite Bubba signed, they are obviously going to pick the new one since it is updated and cheaper. No one is going to want the old one MOC anymore (unless it is for completion purposes which is very rare).

4. I never once in all of my posts talked about loose figures holding value. Not once. Go back and read them all. I have always been talking about the values of the MOC figures going down in value after the rereleases. I collect MOC and loose, but I only care about the MOC values. You, in your own head, made up a debate about loose prices. Loose figures lose value immediately out of the package just like driving a new car does when you drive off the lot. That value means nothing to me. It is the MOC figures that take an even more substantial hit from these rereleases and that has always been the point. New box or not, it doesn't matter to this community. This community wants things easy and cheap. They are not willing to pay much over retail which is proven by the pages of rebuttal to my posts. MOC UE series 1 Ultimate Warrior is now barely worth retail. MOC Hall of Champions Undertaker is barely over retail. And like I said earlier, I guarantee if SES Punk is rereleased in a future wave, the original RSC exclusive's price will plummet. Different box or not. It won't matter.

5. I never once considered the market to be "stable." I never once said I could "count on" the prices. I have been collecting something whether it is Pokemon, wrestling figures, Funkos, videos games, etc. my whole life. I understand the ebbs and flows of the collecting market. Everything rises and falls similar to the stock market. But my problem is with DIRECT rereleases. I have absolutely no problem with them doing the same character with a different attire. That's a completely different figure then. Not just updates like TrueFX and whatnot. Could new looks still decrease the value of previous releases? Sure. Possibly. Especially with the people in this community. If it is easier to get blue Dudley's then the old red Dudley's, the demand for the red could surely go down. However, that is not the issue. A direct rerelease directly affects the market. Plain and simple. That has been my point from the beginning. No one is going back to the originals just for the box. They'll see updated parts, TrueFX, and a cheaper price point for the same guy with the same look. That DIRECTLY affects the secondary market on that figure. Not indirectly like your example with ECW Dudleys.

There is no reason why they couldn't do these figures in a different color. None at all. I don't care if other people don't already have the red Dudleys. They were completely fair game. No distribution issues. No scalping issues. That's on them. Buy the blue Dudleys then. You can agree with that or not. That is my opinion on the matter and has been my opinion the entire time. I never said no one can get new Dudley's ever, it just doesn't have to be the same Dudleys we already have. And why wouldn't we want a different version. We already have red. I'd buy blue if they made it. But no. We waste out time with red.

1. Which was the similarity I was talking about to begin with.


2&3. We'll see what happens with the secondary market. I think that stuff like RSC exclusives or the early DX Elites won't see the drop you perceive.

So essentially someone who's been collecting less than a decade should have to settle for the 8 month long LOD 2000 run for retail price or wait for Ultimates just to uphold the value of figures that came out in 2013?

4. "The packaging only matters to MOC collectors and even that is a super small subset of a niche market. A loose collector would buy the cheaper, upgraded rerelease without any hesitation over an older, less
articulated, higher priced version." - What I was responding to, re: loose values.

As for the highlighted part, I really doin't even know what this is supposed to be. Wrestling figures aren't a prize that people should have to work for or want to pay over retail for or etc. They're a product, in this case produced by a multi-billion dollar company. The idea that people should have to, I guess earn them? is very strange to me. Now if they want them, and the only way to get them is the secondary market, it is what it is. But to make it sound like there's something "cheap or easy" about buying a release implies that buying a figure should hard, which is... odd.

FWIW, I'm actuallyy generally aligned with you in looking for new color ways (though I would point out, IIRC there was no other color way worn by the 2015/16 Dudleys) in the line overall. But I simply have no issue with a specific Vault line revealing certain looks.

At the end of the day though, that's what it comes down to. We can keep digging into minutia and etc. back and forth forever, but fundamentally we disagree on the core concept so it's probably best to just ileave the conversation there, at least with the long posts on my end. I do genuinely appreciate the debate, it's been illuminating to see the other point of view if nothing else.

I don’t know how you could honestly think the RSC exclusives would hold their value if rereleases. The original box is not enough to keep the value from declining. Especially in this community.

I gave LOD 2000 merely as an example since it’d be completely new. You could do the blue road warriors instead since those were only done as basics. I don’t see what the problem would be with doing the red as ultimates instead of rereleasing them as elites again…

When I say “cheap and easy,” I am talking about the mindset of begging for a rerelease instead of working towards a goal of adding a sought after figure to your collection. These were all fair game at one point so there shouldn’t be any complaining. If you missed out, then you have to work to adding it to your collection. I gave the example of the Kurt Angle micro brawler earlier. I was collecting at the time (still am), but missed the drop. It’s a very limited brawler and goes for over $200 on eBay. I would love to add it to my collection but I cannot afford to right now. But instead of complaining or asking for a rerelease, I keep it in the back of my mind as something I might be able to get one day. And if not, it just makes someone elses collection that much better. That’s the collecting mindset I have and that I’ve explained, or tried to explain, many times. I like that this Kurt brawler is rare and expensive even though it may possibly never be added to my own collection.

When you say it’s just a “product,” the you are ignoring how a product could become a collectible. Every collectible is a product. Stamps, vinyl records, comics, etc. but they can become something more. When Action Comics #1 came out, it was simply just a product, but look at it now.

By the way, you’re wrong about the Dudleys. The Dudleys also wore Grey and Black during the 2015/2016 run. They covered this color scheme in a battle pack but never as elites. Easily could do black and grey instead of red.

And I appreciate you enjoying the debate. I can’t stand how many people are willing to jump in with nothing to say and request the thread to be locked when all we are doing is having a conversation.

[crush]

Mar 11, 2024 22:17:34 GMT -5 voicesinmyhead said:

Mar 11, 2024 21:32:39 GMT -5 crush said:

1. Which was the similarity I was talking about to begin with.


2&3. We'll see what happens with the secondary market. I think that stuff like RSC exclusives or the early DX Elites won't see the drop you perceive.

So essentially someone who's been collecting less than a decade should have to settle for the 8 month long LOD 2000 run for retail price or wait for Ultimates just to uphold the value of figures that came out in 2013?

4. "The packaging only matters to MOC collectors and even that is a super small subset of a niche market. A loose collector would buy the cheaper, upgraded rerelease without any hesitation over an older, less
articulated, higher priced version." - What I was responding to, re: loose values.

As for the highlighted part, I really doin't even know what this is supposed to be. Wrestling figures aren't a prize that people should have to work for or want to pay over retail for or etc. They're a product, in this case produced by a multi-billion dollar company. The idea that people should have to, I guess earn them? is very strange to me. Now if they want them, and the only way to get them is the secondary market, it is what it is. But to make it sound like there's something "cheap or easy" about buying a release implies that buying a figure should hard, which is... odd.

FWIW, I'm actuallyy generally aligned with you in looking for new color ways (though I would point out, IIRC there was no other color way worn by the 2015/16 Dudleys) in the line overall. But I simply have no issue with a specific Vault line revealing certain looks.

At the end of the day though, that's what it comes down to. We can keep digging into minutia and etc. back and forth forever, but fundamentally we disagree on the core concept so it's probably best to just ileave the conversation there, at least with the long posts on my end. I do genuinely appreciate the debate, it's been illuminating to see the other point of view if nothing else.

I don’t know how you could honestly think the RSC exclusives would hold their value if rereleases. The original box is not enough to keep the value from declining. Especially in this community.

I gave LOD 2000 merely as an example since it’d be completely new. You could do the blue road warriors instead since those were only done as basics. I don’t see what the problem would be with doing the red as ultimates instead of rereleasing them as elites again…

When I say “cheap and easy,” I am talking about the mindset of begging for a rerelease instead of working towards a goal of adding a sought after figure to your collection. These were all fair game at one point so there shouldn’t be any complaining. If you missed out, then you have to work to adding it to your collection. I gave the example of the Kurt Angle micro brawler earlier. I was collecting at the time (still am), but missed the drop. It’s a very limited brawler and goes for over $200 on eBay. I would love to add it to my collection but I cannot afford to right now. But instead of complaining or asking for a rerelease, I keep it in the back of my mind as something I might be able to get one day. And if not, it just makes someone elses collection that much better. That’s the collecting mindset I have and that I’ve explained, or tried to explain, many times. I like that this Kurt brawler is rare and expensive even though it may possibly never be added to my own collection.

When you say it’s just a “product,” the you are ignoring how a product could become a collectible. Every collectible is a product. Stamps, vinyl records, comics, etc. but they can become something more. When Action Comics #1 came out, it was simply just a product, but look at it now.

By the way, you’re wrong about the Dudleys. The Dudleys also wore Grey and Black during the 2015/2016 run. They covered this color scheme in a battle pack but never as elites. Easily could do black and grey instead of red.

And I appreciate you enjoying the debate. I can’t stand how many people are willing to jump in with nothing to say and request the thread to be locked when all we are doing is having a conversation.

I'm breaking my own word, so I;m the worst kind of internet person, I know.

RE: LOD, my point about the red is a general one that I think it's dumb for Mattel to lock iconic looks behind a third party paywall. Any example of a major look they made over a decade ago can fit what I was trying to say.

Of course any product is a collectible and collectibles are product. When I say a figure is product, I mean hat getting one is not a trophy awarded for some kind of merit. It's a product produced for consumption, whether one pays secondary market or MSPRP, it's produced to be acquired via transaction, not a goal to be won. Buying a release isn't the equivalent to cheating in a race for example.

Re: the Angle Brawler, you're leaving out a key element to that: It was limited in number to 150 and advertised as such during the period when it was up. As I caveated a bunch if times, that is a completely different animal to a mass-produced figure that had no number cap.

RE: The Dudleys. Ah,I totally forgot they wore grey camouflage in that run. Thought that battle pack was a flashback for some reason. Good catch.

[coldblooded]

Hey uh some more kanes coming?

[Deleted]

Mar 11, 2024 23:18:31 GMT -5 coldblooded said:

Hey uh some more kanes coming?

Had to scroll for 45 minutes on this page to get to your comment.

[coldblooded]

Mar 11, 2024 23:38:30 GMT -5 @twistedone22388 said:

Mar 11, 2024 23:18:31 GMT -5 coldblooded said:

Hey uh some more kanes coming?

Had to scroll for 45 minutes on this page to get to your comment.

😂

[Thunder Chunky]

This thread is nuts lmao

They're toys. It's not that serious.

[voicesinmyhead]

Mar 11, 2024 23:38:30 GMT -5 @twistedone22388 said:

Mar 11, 2024 23:18:31 GMT -5 coldblooded said:

Hey uh some more kanes coming?

Had to scroll for 45 minutes on this page to get to your comment.

Another classic response. Let us know when you have something on topic to discuss or have something of value to add to the debate. Thank you.

[voicesinmyhead]

Mar 11, 2024 22:55:47 GMT -5 crush said:

Mar 11, 2024 22:17:34 GMT -5 voicesinmyhead said:

I don’t know how you could honestly think the RSC exclusives would hold their value if rereleases. The original box is not enough to keep the value from declining. Especially in this community.

I gave LOD 2000 merely as an example since it’d be completely new. You could do the blue road warriors instead since those were only done as basics. I don’t see what the problem would be with doing the red as ultimates instead of rereleasing them as elites again…

When I say “cheap and easy,” I am talking about the mindset of begging for a rerelease instead of working towards a goal of adding a sought after figure to your collection. These were all fair game at one point so there shouldn’t be any complaining. If you missed out, then you have to work to adding it to your collection. I gave the example of the Kurt Angle micro brawler earlier. I was collecting at the time (still am), but missed the drop. It’s a very limited brawler and goes for over $200 on eBay. I would love to add it to my collection but I cannot afford to right now. But instead of complaining or asking for a rerelease, I keep it in the back of my mind as something I might be able to get one day. And if not, it just makes someone elses collection that much better. That’s the collecting mindset I have and that I’ve explained, or tried to explain, many times. I like that this Kurt brawler is rare and expensive even though it may possibly never be added to my own collection.

When you say it’s just a “product,” the you are ignoring how a product could become a collectible. Every collectible is a product. Stamps, vinyl records, comics, etc. but they can become something more. When Action Comics #1 came out, it was simply just a product, but look at it now.

By the way, you’re wrong about the Dudleys. The Dudleys also wore Grey and Black during the 2015/2016 run. They covered this color scheme in a battle pack but never as elites. Easily could do black and grey instead of red.

And I appreciate you enjoying the debate. I can’t stand how many people are willing to jump in with nothing to say and request the thread to be locked when all we are doing is having a conversation.

I'm breaking my own word, so I;m the worst kind of internet person, I know.

RE: LOD, my point about the red is a general one that I think it's dumb for Mattel to lock iconic looks behind a third party paywall. Any example of a major look they made over a decade ago can fit what I was trying to say.

Of course any product is a collectible and collectibles are product. When I say a figure is product, I mean hat getting one is not a trophy awarded for some kind of merit. It's a product produced for consumption, whether one pays secondary market or MSPRP, it's produced to be acquired via transaction, not a goal to be won. Buying a release isn't the equivalent to cheating in a race for example.

Re: the Angle Brawler, you're leaving out a key element to that: It was limited in number to 150 and advertised as such during the period when it was up. As I caveated a bunch if times, that is a completely different animal to a mass-produced figure that had no number cap.

RE: The Dudleys. Ah,I totally forgot they wore grey camouflage in that run. Thought that battle pack was a flashback for some reason. Good catch.

We’ll have to agree to disagree on the red LOD. I don’t consider them locked under anything. They were easily accessible and never difficult to find at the time. Let them appreciate in value like any other collectible and not someone wants them bad enough they can work to get them. These weren’t numbered or limited so I don’t see any issues.

The reason I use the Angle brawler as an example is that it’s the most expensive brawler I don’t own (minus unreleased ones) and you don’t see me complaining that I don’t own it. If that comparison doesn’t work because it’s numbered, then pick any brawler that is not numbered that has risen in value. I own the first series of AEW brawlers, but use them as examples if you’d like. Darby has risen in value over time, and if I didn’t own him, I would have to make a decision between saving to buy him or not add him. There would be no thought put into potential rereleases of it.

[rkmo: Autonomous Meat Shield]

Mar 12, 2024 4:11:57 GMT -5 voicesinmyhead said:

Mar 11, 2024 23:38:30 GMT -5 @twistedone22388 said:

Had to scroll for 45 minutes on this page to get to your comment.

Another classic response. Let us know when you have something on topic to discuss or have something of value to add to the debate. Thank you.

*Duck noises*

[voicesinmyhead]

Mar 12, 2024 8:47:25 GMT -5 rkmo: Autonomous Meat Shield said:

Mar 12, 2024 4:11:57 GMT -5 voicesinmyhead said:

Another classic response. Let us know when you have something on topic to discuss or have something of value to add to the debate. Thank you.

*Duck noises*

Another classic response. Let us know when you have something on topic to discuss or have something of value to add to the debate. Thank you.

[mikedanger]

Mar 12, 2024 9:16:29 GMT -5 voicesinmyhead said:

Mar 12, 2024 8:47:25 GMT -5 rkmo: Autonomous Meat Shield said:

*Duck noises*

Another classic response. Let us know when you have something on topic to discuss or have something of value to add to the debate. Thank you.

OMG YAY SO COOL!

[Deleted]

Mar 12, 2024 4:11:57 GMT -5 voicesinmyhead said:

Another classic response. Let us know when you have something on topic to discuss or have something of value to add to the debate. Thank you.

Something on topic? The post is about figures that Ringside has for pre-order. Something you haven’t be discussing the entire time.

Instead, you’ve gone off on a tangent for anyone’s comment that may disagree with yours. Again…

[Chip]

I've never bought anything for my collection as an "investment".

They value of something increasing is sort of like a reward for your efforts. Like, I've bought over 1,500 Mattel's....it's actually kind of nice that a lot would sell for more than what I paid for them. I'm not going to do this forever, and when I want to get out, I'd like to not take a MASSIVE loss on every single thing I've bought given the nature of what this is. I've been able to sell some of my older figures at all different times for good money, and I've used that money to buy more currently released figures. It's not the REASON I collect, but it's a nice side effect for the amount of time/energy/effort and money I put in to this hobby

This is actually a HOBBY. In case people forgot.
This isn't a "make sure everyone gets everything they've ever wanted" event.

I used to collect G.I. Joes as a kid, still have my originals. I didn't get every single one, if I wanted some now I'd have to pay the market value for them. If Hasbro just re-released all the originals because I wanted them....how is that OK to do to all the people who have had their own for decades?

Toys holding monetary value is a GOOD THING for everyone that collects.

[Chip]

Re-releasing mass produced/mainline figures (Dudleys, DX) really isn't that big of a deal, IMO. My biggest issue with that is more about like, why not change up the attires then so you're getting new figures entirely. It doesn't really matter because they're gonna sell out anyway, but I'd just prefer it from an aesthetic standpoint

Same with re-releasing a figure that was supposed to be mass released but got cut short like what happened with Harley, John Nada, etc.

It's the Ringside exclusive/Defining Moments re-releases that bug me the most

Those were supposed to be Exclusive, Limited, etc. or were purposely made to be "premium" items.

[Deleted]

Mar 12, 2024 9:47:06 GMT -5 Chip said:

If Hasbro just re-released all the originals because I wanted them....how is that OK to do to all the people who have had their own for decades?

If Hasbro did this (which they have been with other lines), it’s not because 1 person wants them. It’s to re-release a figure of higher quality, to give many new collectors an opportunity to obtain said figure, or they see an opportunity to make more money for the company.

In this case, Mattel is using updated technology to get these figures a better/updated look (for the most part). At the same time, it’ll make Mattel/Ringside more money and allows other collectors to obtain versions of these figures. The overall idea is be re-done, but there’s obvious difference between these Vault figures and the originals.