Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2021 7:12:43 GMT -5
Anyone who couldn't stand Bryan vs Page being a 1 hour draw would have hated ROH in the 2000's, ECW in the 90's, and just about every wrestling company before then. They’re used to 5 minute matches. Can’t really blame them for having a short attention span lol
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kinnikuman
Main Eventer
Joined on: Feb 6, 2020 21:42:25 GMT -5
Posts: 4,674
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Post by kinnikuman on Dec 16, 2021 10:22:51 GMT -5
I had no problem with the 1 hour. The draw though was crap. NEAT you showed us great wrestling for an hour. You show us great wrestling every week. That's nothing new in AEW. We argued earlier that neither man could lose, but you have to have a finish of some sort somehow. There was ZERO need for a 1 hr draw. Do 30 min and add another match to the show. MAYBE if either man could work as good as Omega the match would've been much more amazing. And don't give me it was to enhance Hangman. He's already over. No one will even remember this match in a few weeks. It did nothing. Maybe have Omega show up on the ramp at the end to ensure a three way dance, I dunno. It needed something and we didn't get it.
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Post by Odafin Tutuola on Dec 16, 2021 10:34:05 GMT -5
Here is my issue with the finish of the World Championship match, I get it that Tony Khan didn't want to job out Bryan Danielson and take the title off Adam Page, but Bryan Danielson could have taken a lost and still look strong. The Time limit draw is just lazy booking, time limit draws is AEW's version of a disqualification and count out. Kenny Omega isn't needed in any world title matches. The one who should take the title off of Adam Page is MJF not an ex-WWE guy. MJF is good on the mic and can be this chicken crapheel champion for the strong babyface chasing. The main event was not good, and the ending was shit.
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Post by K5 on Dec 16, 2021 10:37:00 GMT -5
Here is my issue with the finish of the World Championship match, I get it that Tony Khan didn't want to job out Bryan Danielson and take the title off Adam Page, but Bryan Danielson could have taken a lost and still look strong. The Time limit draw is just lazy booking, time limit draws is AEW's version of a disqualification and count out. Kenny Omega isn't needed in any world title matches. The one who should take the title off of Adam Page is MJF not an ex-WWE guy. MJF is good on the mic and can be this chicken crap heel champion for the strong babyface chasing. The main event was not good, and the ending was crap. imagine if people responded to the Punk/Joe matches as lazy booking. 😂
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Post by sonstuds on Dec 16, 2021 11:04:53 GMT -5
Anyone who couldn't stand Bryan vs Page being a 1 hour draw would have hated ROH in the 2000's, ECW in the 90's, and just about every wrestling company before then. Just wait until the rematch also goes to a one hour draw.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2021 11:11:58 GMT -5
Here is my issue with the finish of the World Championship match, I get it that Tony Khan didn't want to job out Bryan Danielson and take the title off Adam Page, but Bryan Danielson could have taken a lost and still look strong. The Time limit draw is just lazy booking, time limit draws is AEW's version of a disqualification and count out. Kenny Omega isn't needed in any world title matches. The one who should take the title off of Adam Page is MJF not an ex-WWE guy. MJF is good on the mic and can be this chicken crap heel champion for the strong babyface chasing. The main event was not good, and the ending was crap. imagine if people responded to the Punk/Joe matches as lazy booking. 😂 FICKLE!
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Post by Bandalero on Dec 16, 2021 11:30:20 GMT -5
I'm a big AEW fan, but I don't get the card placements...
Last night Dante vs MJF for the ring should have opened the show, not closed it. If they knew they were going to an AEW championship 60-min match, then get the preambles out of the way. Dante is a good kid, but his 450 botch was so dangerous, I literally thought his head bounced off the cement.
I guess the mentality is to start off the show with their biggest draw to keep viewers from clicking away, but it damages the perceived value of the belt that it's not main-event worthy and not to mention how Page was presented was not very well thought through either. 1st title defense, was dominated for the majority of the match by a former WWE champion, and AEW missed an opportunity to make headlining news by either giving DB his first loss or showing the unpredictability of giving him he belt and Page losing in his first defense. So much more newsworthy outcomes than this.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2021 11:41:07 GMT -5
I'm a big AEW fan, but I don't get the card placements... Last night Dante vs MJF for the ring should have opened the show, not closed it. If they knew they were going to an AEW championship 60-min match, then get the preambles out of the way. Dante is a good kid, but his 450 botch was so dangerous, I literally thought his head bounced off the cement. I guess the mentality is to start off the show with their biggest draw to keep viewers from clicking away, but it damages the perceived value of the belt that it's not main-event worthy and not to mention how Page was presented was not very well thought through either. 1st title defense, was dominated for the majority of the match by a former WWE champion, and AEW missed an opportunity to make headlining news by either giving DB his first loss or showing the unpredictability of giving him he belt and Page losing in his first defense. So much more newsworthy outcomes than this. I'm guessing here, I could be totally wrong. They start with the 60 minute draw so they know time isn't an issue. If they screw up and run over even 5 minutes with the other hour, suddenly doing a 60 minute draw means overrun (which they could clear I suppose), or finishing on YouTube, or having to abandon and make up a finish. Plus, if they start the match with an hour left and it's not an Ironman, kinda gives it away no?
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Post by Lorenzo Alcazar on Dec 16, 2021 12:20:41 GMT -5
I said this when it was booked, and I'll stand by it:
Winter is Coming was TOO SOON to book Danielson vs. Page. Page is only a month into his title reign and literally hasn't wrestled since winning the belt. If he loses the belt on his first defense, he looks like a schmuck.
On the other side, if Bryan Danielson loses the match, it takes the piss out of his awesome arrival into AEW and renders the World Title Eliminator Tournament a waste.
I said all along, REVOLUTION on March 6 was when you have this match...and maybe it will happen there too with a re-match? Who knows. But by March 6 you WILL know whether or not Adam Page is working as Champ or if you want to pull the plug.
But Tony just needs to stop booking himself into a corner with matches where there can't be a winner. He's done it TWICE now with Danielson with the Omega and Page matches coming to draws. I really would think that you want to not start overplaying that as Tony Kahn has openly criticized WWE for their overuse of "non-finishes". WWE relies very heavily on things like ref bumps, count outs, DQ's, and matches that just get "thrown out".
Grand Slam was way too soon to have Danielson vs Omega, and Winter is Coming was WAAAAAAAAAAAY too soon to have Danielson vs Page for the title, hence another draw.
Unless the Danielson 60-minute draw thing is part of a story that will play out in some other capacity....it's going to start to look like lazy booking. The matches themselves were FANTASTIC.....but I think fans expect a definitive winner, and I know Tony Kahn has said he takes pride in providing matches with definitive finishes.
We'll have to see what happens...but again, I think this was too soon to have this match. It was a no-win situation if either guy won. It would have hurt Danielson to lose and it would have absolutely destroyed Adam Page's credibility to lose the title on his first title defense....so personally, knowing all of that, I think they should have saved this for Revolution.
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Post by East Coast on Dec 16, 2021 12:27:03 GMT -5
nothing wrong with 1 hr matches. nothing wrong with time limit draws.
The problem is u just did this. And the other problem is u just did this, and the other match was WAAYY better. This match didn't suck or anything. But it wasn't paced well. Adam Page has almost no charisma. He managed to fire up once or twice for a half second in that whole 1 hour.
nobody will remember this match in a week, while ppl are still talking about the Omega match. One of these was not like the other.
Adam Page is obviousy not as good as Omega or Bryan. And this dumb match just showed that to everyone
If WWF does the WM 13 Bret Hart/Stone Cold submission match. Then months later they do a submission match with Bret Hart vs. Bob Holly. It aint the same
not to mention how most ppl didn't like the Omega match ending. And they decided to do the same thing that ppl didn't like in the same exact way. Nobody before was like "WOW, i luv how the match just randomly ended with barely any indication or warning that it would just kinda stop". Everyone was like "WTF, what a bad ending to a great match".
this was a bad ending to an okay match
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Post by K5 on Dec 16, 2021 13:08:07 GMT -5
nothing wrong with 1 hr matches. nothing wrong with time limit draws. The problem is u just did this. And the other problem is u just did this, and the other match was WAAYY better. This match didn't suck or anything. But it wasn't paced well. Adam Page has almost no charisma. He managed to fire up once or twice for a half second in that whole 1 hour. nobody will remember this match in a week, while ppl are still talking about the Omega match. One of these was not like the other. Adam Page is obviousy not as good as Omega or Bryan. And this dumb match just showed that to everyone If WWF does the WM 13 Bret Hart/Stone Cold submission match. Then months later they do a submission match with Bret Hart vs. Bob Holly. It aint the same not to mention how most ppl didn't like the Omega match ending. And they decided to do the same thing that ppl didn't like in the same exact way. Nobody before was like "WOW, i luv how the match just randomly ended with barely any indication or warning that it would just kinda stop". Everyone was like "WTF, what a bad ending to a great match". this was a bad ending to an okay match I thought it was a brilliant match, better than the Omega/Bryan match, and was fantastic as the first defence for Page. he’s still figuring out his game plan against god tier opponents, but despite the scrambling and damage he took, he had Bryan beat the end with one of the absolute best buckshot lariats to date. perfectly setting up their next match. this match was a testament that Page is THE guy. he went an hour with someone considered possibly the best wrestler in the world, a direct throwback to NWA time limit draws. they could happen twice a month, they may not happen at all. ties happen in sports often. I’d suggest you get accustomed to time limit draws, or don’t, that’s up to you. seriously, in my opinion, if that match didn’t do it for you…maybe just stick with the WWE stuff. for your own sake. because I believe this is a pearl before swine scenario. but that’s just my take, I think while they make mistakes every show, AEW and Page’s title reign are the best things I‘ve seen in wrestling in a long time.
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Dec 16, 2021 13:34:51 GMT -5
Man, so many upset AEW fans over this 60 minute time limit draw match.
I would love to have seen you fans watch Flair vs. Rhodes, Flair vs. Windham, Flair vs. McDaniel, Flair vs. Brisco, Flair vs. Race, Flair vs. Sting, Flair vs. Luger, Flair vs. Steamboat back in the 80s during Flair's dominant reign of being World Champion.
Every match he had was a time limit draw. It keeps the title on the champion, and it makes the challenger look strong. TK is doing old school wrestling booking with his main event wrestlers. There doesn't have to be a win/loser in every match.
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Post by Bandalero on Dec 16, 2021 13:49:12 GMT -5
Lorenzo Alcazar dude I'm buying what you are selling! that is spot on analysis. what I don't understand is that Tony has surrounded himself with performers who love wrestling, veterans who know the psychology of wrestling, and I get that he has final say on the booking - but didn't someone pipe up somewhere backstage to say "umm boss, we did this exact same broadway a month ago." I agree he's booking himself into corners and losing some better story telling opportunities. K5 don't get me wrong here, I like Adam Page, but you are kidding yourself if you think he's THE next big thing. He's a paper champion - his promos show it, his booking last night shows it. He's a transition to the next major heel champ - be it Brian or MJF, and then AEW has options, Punk, a returned face Omega (after dealing with the Elite), or even a face Wardlow. AEW has money in their young stars, Wardlow is THE next big thing if you ask me. hbkbigdaddycool I love all of Flair's 60 min matches, hell that type of match put my favourite wrestler, Sting on the map! But Lorenzo is making a good point - you're throwing away top tier matchups for what? if Flair vs. Sting happened at a regular 6:05 Saturday TBS show rather than Clash of the Champions 1 - PPV-style on TV - Sting's career would probably be very different now.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2021 14:11:25 GMT -5
K5 don't get me wrong here, I like Adam Page, but you are kidding yourself if you think he's THE next big thing. He's a paper champion - his promos show it, his booking last night shows it. He's a transition to the next major heel champ - be it Brian or MJF, and then AEW has options, Punk, a returned face Omega (after dealing with the Elite), or even a face Wardlow. AEW has money in their young stars, Wardlow is THE next big thing if you ask me. I both disagree completely, and agree completely at the same time. Fully agreed, Wardlow is THE guy. MJF will take it from Hanger, and then Wardlow will turn and take it from MJF. That's the story. Period. 100% agreed on how damn good he is. I love how slow they're taking things with him, and they're setting him up on those Hangman/MJF/Omega levels of booking right now. But Hanger is also THE guy. Transition champs don't exist in this company. Hangman draws, Hangman gets the biggest reactions in the company for a babyface besides maaaybe Punk, and even then its close now that the initial "OMG" has worn off. You can build an entire company around Hangman, and they have, very successfully. I love his promos, I love the depth of his character, and I love his in ring work. Full bias I find him far too relatable on a human level both character and human wise. All of it screams Okada/Omega/Danielson level, and to me last night absolutely showed that. Fair to have a different take of course and I totally respect that, but I gotta disagree hard on it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2021 14:14:24 GMT -5
Man, so many upset AEW fans over this 60 minute time limit draw match. I would love to have seen you fans watch Flair vs. Rhodes, Flair vs. Windham, Flair vs. McDaniel, Flair vs. Brisco, Flair vs. Race, Flair vs. Sting, Flair vs. Luger, Flair vs. Steamboat back in the 80s during Flair's dominant reign of being World Champion. Every match he had was a time limit draw. It keeps the title on the champion, and it makes the challenger look strong. TK is doing old school wrestling booking with his main event wrestlers. There doesn't have to be a win/loser in every match. I still love going back and watching those matches. Sports wise beyond the sport I coach (athletics) tennis is my favourite sport, and the parallels are similar. There is nothing quite like watching a 5 hour 5 set match that comes down to a point or two, and 60 minute draws are very similar in the rollercoaster they take you on. If that's 'bad' wrestling I don't want to watch good wrestling. I'm also a chess guy, so clearly I have a type of thing that I like, and it's long, drawn out battles.
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Thunder Chunky
Main Eventer
Joined on: Aug 1, 2010 21:57:30 GMT -5
Posts: 4,521
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Post by Thunder Chunky on Dec 16, 2021 14:37:35 GMT -5
They booked themselves into a corner with the Hangman/Danielson match.
The entire thing made Hangman look weak. He's had a month off, he should be completely rested. Danielson has wrestled every week since Page won the belt, Hangman shouldn't have got his ass kicked. This is just my opinion, but I think it was a mistake to have Danielson be Hangman's first feud. The entire thing made Hangman look like a joke because he always tried to fight Bryan after a match. Horrible build on Hangman's side and he needs to lose the belt sooner rather than later.
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Post by East Coast on Dec 16, 2021 14:40:44 GMT -5
the problem is if u replaced Adam Page in that same match we watched, with Cedric Alexander.
the Cedric Alexander/Dbry match would've been better.
u replace Adam Page in that match with Darby Allin. It would've been better.
and why is that? Because Adam Page is not ready. And he might never be ready. Because i watched him in ROH and New Japan, and he hasn't changed much in those 5 years. His in-ring work has gotten a little tighter. And Tony Khan has attempted to get some character or entertainment value out of him. But its slow going. He may go on to be the next Rollins/HBK. But he may also go on to be one of these guys like Ambrose who had all the potential and just fell flat.
and before the Moxley fans come at me. If u like Moxley in AEW, fine. But in WWE, Ambrose showed flashes of brilliance. Flashes of him being THE GUY. And a star. We all thought he was going to be the guy coming out of The Shield. And it never happened. U wait and wait, and eventually u move on.
how long do we wait for Adam Page to become THE GUY? He can go in the ring. He has flashes of HBK and Rollins like work and athleticism. But u got to sell. u got to work the crowd. U have to be entertaining and have ppl want to watch you. Not just because they will like anything AEW does. But because ur actually that good.
and rn, he's not. He's not Bryans level. He's not Omegas level. And storyline wise, i understand this is to make him look on that level. But if u have to do all this, it just shines the light on the fact that its undeserved. When UR CHAMPION is still having to "prove" himself.
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Post by K5 on Dec 16, 2021 14:54:45 GMT -5
K5 don't get me wrong here, I like Adam Page, but you are kidding yourself if you think he's THE next big thing. He's a paper champion - his promos show it, his booking last night shows it. He's a transition to the next major heel champ - be it Brian or MJF, and then AEW has options, Punk, a returned face Omega (after dealing with the Elite), or even a face Wardlow. AEW has money in their young stars, Wardlow is THE next big thing if you ask me. I didn’t call Page the next big thing. I called him ‘THE guy’. much like how tommy rich was the nwa champ, a young guy who managed to overthrow these icons of the sport, page proved his spot last night. that doesn’t mean he’s the best, or that he’s gonna be the face that always runs the place. he could very well be surpassed. and while he’s not MJF on the mic, I actually think no one else could be the cowboy of aew. he fits his role perfectly. there’s a reason the crowds love him. I also have no idea how after being fed stale synthetic wwe for years ANYONE has serious gripes about this match or AEW as a whole. do they make mistakes? sure, they’re a new company. I’m yet to see a perfect wrestling promotion. but this is a breath of fresh air, and it seems like there’s a lot of ignoring this fact.
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Post by K5 on Dec 16, 2021 14:58:52 GMT -5
Man, so many upset AEW fans over this 60 minute time limit draw match. I would love to have seen you fans watch Flair vs. Rhodes, Flair vs. Windham, Flair vs. McDaniel, Flair vs. Brisco, Flair vs. Race, Flair vs. Sting, Flair vs. Luger, Flair vs. Steamboat back in the 80s during Flair's dominant reign of being World Champion. Every match he had was a time limit draw. It keeps the title on the champion, and it makes the challenger look strong. TK is doing old school wrestling booking with his main event wrestlers. There doesn't have to be a win/loser in every match. this a million times over. comparing it to wwe’s reliance on dusty finishes is just ridiculous. imagine if those guys heard a Broadway being compared to a dusty finish or dq. the baby face bled, got beat the tar out of by the heel, slowly built a return, and finished just short. I’ll be waiting to see what wwe match has come close in the last decade in terms of emotion, unpredictable outcome, and storytelling.
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fishhook36
Mid-Carder
Joined on: Oct 16, 2021 19:09:14 GMT -5
Posts: 227
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Post by fishhook36 on Dec 16, 2021 15:20:23 GMT -5
nothing wrong with 1 hr matches. nothing wrong with time limit draws. The problem is u just did this. And the other problem is u just did this, and the other match was WAAYY better. This match didn't suck or anything. But it wasn't paced well. Adam Page has almost no charisma. He managed to fire up once or twice for a half second in that whole 1 hour. nobody will remember this match in a week, while ppl are still talking about the Omega match. One of these was not like the other. Adam Page is obviousy not as good as Omega or Bryan. And this dumb match just showed that to everyone If WWF does the WM 13 Bret Hart/Stone Cold submission match. Then months later they do a submission match with Bret Hart vs. Bob Holly. It aint the same not to mention how most ppl didn't like the Omega match ending. And they decided to do the same thing that ppl didn't like in the same exact way. Nobody before was like "WOW, i luv how the match just randomly ended with barely any indication or warning that it would just kinda stop". Everyone was like "WTF, what a bad ending to a great match". this was a bad ending to an okay match I thought it was a brilliant match, better than the Omega/Bryan match, and was fantastic as the first defence for Page. he’s still figuring out his game plan against god tier opponents, but despite the scrambling and damage he took, he had Bryan beat the end with one of the absolute best buckshot lariats to date. perfectly setting up their next match. this match was a testament that Page is THE guy. he went an hour with someone considered possibly the best wrestler in the world, a direct throwback to NWA time limit draws. they could happen twice a month, they may not happen at all. ties happen in sports often. I’d suggest you get accustomed to time limit draws, or don’t, that’s up to you. seriously, in my opinion, if that match didn’t do it for you…maybe just stick with the WWE stuff. for your own sake. because I believe this is a pearl before swine scenario. but that’s just my take, I think while they make mistakes every show, AEW and Page’s title reign are the best things I‘ve seen in wrestling in a long time. Seriously you have bitching about that. Yet those same people kept their mouth shut when trashley beat Big e Monday night.Far to many fans are stuck on Bruce Prichard logic.
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