Why is it so difficult to get new legends?

[kirk815]

Mar 17, 2021 11:40:58 GMT -5 Rock-Is-King said:

Mar 17, 2021 11:32:31 GMT -5 PJ said:

And where would these wrestlers get all these figures of themselves to sell at conventions?

And for those bringing up other companies havIng no trouble signing talent to figure deals are missing the most important detail of that. They don’t have the WWAndE to deal with. They are free to sign whoever they want for however much both parties agree on. Mattel doesn’t have that luxury. They have the WWE license and have to cater to who the WWE wants representing the WWE brand. So if the WWE offers Scott Steiner their standard legends merchandise contract and Steiner turned it down then the WWE isn’t going to offer him more. And I am sure there’s plenty of wrestlers who the WWE feel aren’t worth the money spent on the contract. And in Mattel case maybe they feel some wrestlers won’t get the return to justify the money needed to Sculpt/tool the parts to produce a figure.

Good valid point made about the Legends deal BUT couldn’t they at least try making a new legend or two just to see how much of a turnout could be made instead of going on they’re own personal “feeling” as to whether someone would sell or not?? If they would take a chance or two they just might be pleasantly surprised ....hell they could take that chance by making a couple RSC exclusives which are limited

RSC is also a business. Mattel has stated before that RSC has to be interested in the exclusives. I doubt they would pass up Warrior and Cena in favor of Booger or Mantuar (I would buy both btw). RSC wants to make money too, especially being that they are a smaller company focused primarily on wrestling figures only as opposed to other online retailers that cater to collector's (Funko, Hot Toys, NECA, etc.).

Most of their exclusives within the past couple of years have been main event/upper mid card talent (main exception being Brian Kendrick) so I doubt RSC is interested in experiments and taking chances when they know HBK, Scott Hall, Kevin Nash, Sting, Macho, Warrior etc. are going to sell.

[Rock-Is-King]

Mar 17, 2021 12:05:14 GMT -5 kirk815 said:

Mar 17, 2021 11:40:58 GMT -5 Rock-Is-King said:

Good valid point made about the Legends deal BUT couldn’t they at least try making a new legend or two just to see how much of a turnout could be made instead of going on they’re own personal “feeling” as to whether someone would sell or not?? If they would take a chance or two they just might be pleasantly surprised ....hell they could take that chance by making a couple RSC exclusives which are limited

RSC is also a business. Mattel has stated before that RSC has to be interested in the exclusives. I doubt they would pass up Warrior and Cena in favor of Booger or Mantuar (I would buy both btw). RSC wants to make money too, especially being that they are a smaller company focused primarily on wrestling figures only as opposed to other online retailers that cater to collector's (Funko, Hot Toys, NECA, etc.).

Most of their exclusives within the past couple of years have been main event/upper mid card talent (main exception being Brian Kendrick) so I doubt RSC is interested in experiments and taking chances when they know HBK, Scott Hall, Kevin Nash, Sting, Macho, Warrior etc. are going to sell.

And that’s exactly why a lot of our collections have become stale ....even though I’d buy 1000 Stings if they made them LoL

[marklud]

As others have said, the circumstances are very different from the Jakks days. Early in the Mattel line, Mattel was able to go out and sign guys directly to contracts (Macho, Warrior, Bret). It changed shortly after that where Mattel needs full licensor approval and needs them to be under a WWE merch deal. It's as simple as that.

Now, is it fully on WWE that Mattel can no longer go out and sign guys separately, or is Mattel a part of that, knowing that maybe they spent too much to get Bret/Macho/etc. separately? We don't know that. Bottom line is that these are the rules Mattel has to play with at the moment.

The good news is Steve is fighting for all the same guys we all want. He was on these boards as a fan well before he ever worked at Mattel. He gives WWE lists of guys they want to make, which helps some of them get deals.

Do I wish there were less restrictions/Mattel was more forceful in getting who we all want? Yes. But these are the current circumstances.

[newgenandy]

Steve has already said rock and cena are the biggest sellers “by far” (was I believe the exact quote) so while some collectors may be bothered by the amount of repeat superstars kids, parents, etc are not

And while both those have made sporadic appearances in recent times they’re both legends in terms of when they debuted with the company

Like it or not, the 100th warrior or macho figure will sell far better than an enhancement talent - look at how long someone like Tito who was over sat on shelves for

[The One Who Collects]

I've been collecting Mattel figures from the beginning. I am happy for those who will get second chances at guys. For me at this point, I'm not interested in another Kane or Austin or Godfather or "fill in the blank guys" they keep making. Hopefully AEW continues to sign these guys so the well dries up further. So glad they took Christian and Big Show out of the equation. Whatever the reasons there are no new legends, it means I will keep more of my money and there will be more of what I don't want for others that do. Win-Win.

[newgenandy]

Something else to consider is the ‘admin’ and economics which come with making figures of people and intellectual property.

It’s not as simple as just having a contract and doing a figure and sitting back for the money to roll in.

WWE / Mattel etc will have to draw up the contract, have that signed, if it’s not returned on time chase it, file it when it comes, they will have some sort of record retention where documents are kept for x amount of time then destroyed, they will have a renewal date and have to review sales etc and decide if they want to repeat the contract or end the agreement. You have to have staff for that, along with all the associated costs of having those staff. If they just signed everyone for figures they’d need to increase staffing levels accordingly.

It’s not as simple as Vince or someone from Mattel calls up a random dude and asks if he wants a figure and then say “cool we’ll make that right away” and the guy sits in his chair with dollar signs in his eyes like Scrooge mcduck.

There’s paperwork, legalities and other things to traverse. If only business was as simple as some collectors think it is.

[stc13]

WWE Legends contracts are not nearly as complicated as some people are making them out to be. Talent get paid a $10,000 advance, and make a set percentage of WWE's cut of merchandising revenue. I did the math and I think it was somewhere around $.50 per figure, maybe a bit less. Royalties are paid against that $10,000 advance, meaning that they don't get another dime until after the first 10k. Contracts are typically 5 years with a 6th year company option. So the direct cost to WWE is very, very small. And wrestlers are only getting paid for sold merchandise, whether it's tshirts, video games, toys, trading cards, etc. So WWE is making a cut on every item - it's not like they're fronting all this money and hoping they make it back. They're very company friendly contracts, and not expensive at all.

Top tier stars probably have more favorable deals with different terms. But there are dozens of legends contracts in the public record and the lower tier guys are all identical.

BUT - why spend the cash to sign external talent when they literally have hundreds of active wrestlers under contract who are already being paid. They've shifted strategy in recent years, and it makes business sense even if it isn't what collectors want. There was a point where a large legends roster was important to round out video games, trading card sets, figures, etc. Now they have a deep roster talent in NXT, 205 Live, NXT UK, and probably additional international NXT brands to come who can fill those spots. And obviously featuring your active talent and letting them make royalties keeps the workers happy.

There will always be a core group of star legends signed. And I'm sure they will have a rotating crop of lower tier stars, some cycling off and other new faces being added. But it's really unlikely that we're ever going to see a robust Legends program in the way that we did in the mid 2010's. It just doesn't make sense for WWE's current business model.

[CM Tusk]

Mar 17, 2021 10:04:58 GMT -5 WrestlingFigWig said:

Mar 17, 2021 0:10:30 GMT -5 CM Tusk said:

Yeah, and Triple H needs Vinces blessing to do so as Vince makes the final decision. Guys like Warrior and Bruno coming back into the fold means more profits for Vince so it’s good business. Adam Bomb, as well most of that list, won’t move the needle enough for Vince to care.

If Nikolai Volkoff can get a second figure, I don't think Adam Bomb and others would be a problem for WWE. 

Nikolai was on very good terms with WWE and had been a lifelong friend of Vince. It’s not like having him under a legends contract was much of a challenge. Plus most wrestling fans know who he is, so when it comes to merch it can sell. Big difference.

[Ministry of Darkness]

Jakks signing independently was far better for legends collectors since Mattel needs legends to have WWE deals to be consider for a figure.

[WrestlingFigWig]

Mar 17, 2021 13:37:23 GMT -5 CM Tusk said:

Mar 17, 2021 10:04:58 GMT -5 WrestlingFigWig said:

If Nikolai Volkoff can get a second figure, I don't think Adam Bomb and others would be a problem for WWE. 

Nikolai was on very good terms with WWE and had been a lifelong friend of Vince. It’s not like having him under a legends contract was much of a challenge. Plus most wrestling fans know who he is, so when it comes to merch it can sell. Big difference.

Agree to disagree

[marklud]

Mar 17, 2021 13:04:00 GMT -5 stc13 said:

WWE Legends contracts are not nearly as complicated as some people are making them out to be. Talent get paid a $10,000 advance, and make a set percentage of WWE's cut of merchandising revenue. I did the math and I think it was somewhere around $.50 per figure, maybe a bit less. Royalties are paid against that $10,000 advance, meaning that they don't get another dime until after the first 10k. Contracts are typically 5 years with a 6th year company option. So the direct cost to WWE is very, very small. And wrestlers are only getting paid for sold merchandise, whether it's tshirts, video games, toys, trading cards, etc. So WWE is making a cut on every item - it's not like they're fronting all this money and hoping they make it back. They're very company friendly contracts, and not expensive at all.

Top tier stars probably have more favorable deals with different terms. But there are dozens of legends contracts in the public record and the lower tier guys are all identical.

BUT - why spend the cash to sign external talent when they literally have hundreds of active wrestlers under contract who are already being paid. They've shifted strategy in recent years, and it makes business sense even if it isn't what collectors want. There was a point where a large legends roster was important to round out video games, trading card sets, figures, etc. Now they have a deep roster talent in NXT, 205 Live, NXT UK, and probably additional international NXT brands to come who can fill those spots. And obviously featuring your active talent and letting them make royalties keeps the workers happy.

There will always be a core group of star legends signed. And I'm sure they will have a rotating crop of lower tier stars, some cycling off and other new faces being added. But it's really unlikely that we're ever going to see a robust Legends program in the way that we did in the mid 2010's. It just doesn't make sense for WWE's current business model.

I believe there is a big deterrent for the talent, however. Guys have said in the past that a legends deal can give WWE the right of first refusal with certain appearances; like, if someone wants to do Wrestlecon and get paid X amount one weekend but they say they need him at Axxess, he's losing out on all that Wrestlecon money. So I do think there's a flip side where it isn't ideal for a lot of guys.

[newgenandy]

Mar 17, 2021 15:05:19 GMT -5 marklud said:

Mar 17, 2021 13:04:00 GMT -5 stc13 said:

WWE Legends contracts are not nearly as complicated as some people are making them out to be. Talent get paid a $10,000 advance, and make a set percentage of WWE's cut of merchandising revenue. I did the math and I think it was somewhere around $.50 per figure, maybe a bit less. Royalties are paid against that $10,000 advance, meaning that they don't get another dime until after the first 10k. Contracts are typically 5 years with a 6th year company option. So the direct cost to WWE is very, very small. And wrestlers are only getting paid for sold merchandise, whether it's tshirts, video games, toys, trading cards, etc. So WWE is making a cut on every item - it's not like they're fronting all this money and hoping they make it back. They're very company friendly contracts, and not expensive at all.

Top tier stars probably have more favorable deals with different terms. But there are dozens of legends contracts in the public record and the lower tier guys are all identical.

BUT - why spend the cash to sign external talent when they literally have hundreds of active wrestlers under contract who are already being paid. They've shifted strategy in recent years, and it makes business sense even if it isn't what collectors want. There was a point where a large legends roster was important to round out video games, trading card sets, figures, etc. Now they have a deep roster talent in NXT, 205 Live, NXT UK, and probably additional international NXT brands to come who can fill those spots. And obviously featuring your active talent and letting them make royalties keeps the workers happy.

There will always be a core group of star legends signed. And I'm sure they will have a rotating crop of lower tier stars, some cycling off and other new faces being added. But it's really unlikely that we're ever going to see a robust Legends program in the way that we did in the mid 2010's. It just doesn't make sense for WWE's current business model.

I believe there is a big deterrent for the talent, however. Guys have said in the past that a legends deal can give WWE the right of first refusal with certain appearances; like, if someone wants to do Wrestlecon and get paid X amount one weekend but they say they need him at Axxess, he's losing out on all that Wrestlecon money. So I do think there's a flip side where it isn't ideal for a lot of guys.

Yep and in the opposite side of the coin they can tell you they need you for raw etc and not every legend wants to have to travel, especially if it’s just a smile and wave thing like they’ve done before in the past with legends

[stc13]

Mar 17, 2021 15:08:01 GMT -5 newgenandy said:

Mar 17, 2021 15:05:19 GMT -5 marklud said:

I believe there is a big deterrent for the talent, however. Guys have said in the past that a legends deal can give WWE the right of first refusal with certain appearances; like, if someone wants to do Wrestlecon and get paid X amount one weekend but they say they need him at Axxess, he's losing out on all that Wrestlecon money. So I do think there's a flip side where it isn't ideal for a lot of guys.

Yep and in the opposite side of the coin they can tell you they need you for raw etc and not every legend wants to have to travel, especially if it’s just a smile and wave thing like they’ve done before in the past with legends

Oh yeah, it's definitely a bad deal for a lot of talent.  Especially anyone who is still active.  WWE get global licensing rights, priority appearances, etc, while the payout really isn't that great compared to the cut WWE takes.  Guys like Steiner, Rock n Roll, etc who are/were still very active on the indies are probably leaving money on the table if they signed a Legends deal.  But it probably makes a lot of sense for estates who have limited opportunities to monetize the wrestler's career or folks like Crush, Adam Bomb, etc who are best known for a gimmick WWE controls.

I just meant that in terms of costs to WWE, it's a very low risk financial agreement for them.  There's not a great reason why they aren't signing talent to legends deals beyond that they simply don't want to.  In the past plenty of talent said they would love to sign, but were never approached by WWE.  But opportunities like Pro Wrestling Tees, Jazwares signing legends, and others hopefully open up more mutually beneficial and flexible financial opportunities for retired wrestlers.

[newgenandy]

Mar 17, 2021 15:17:54 GMT -5 stc13 said:

Mar 17, 2021 15:08:01 GMT -5 newgenandy said:

Yep and in the opposite side of the coin they can tell you they need you for raw etc and not every legend wants to have to travel, especially if it’s just a smile and wave thing like they’ve done before in the past with legends

Oh yeah, it's definitely a bad deal for a lot of talent.  Especially anyone who is still active.  WWE get global licensing rights, priority appearances, etc, while the payout really isn't that great compared to the cut WWE takes.  Guys like Steiner, Rock n Roll, etc who are/were still very active on the indies are probably leaving money on the table if they signed a Legends deal.  But it probably makes a lot of sense for estates who have limited opportunities to monetize the wrestler's career or folks like Crush, Adam Bomb, etc who are best known for a gimmick WWE controls.

I just meant that in terms of costs to WWE, it's a very low risk financial agreement for them.  There's not a great reason why they aren't signing talent to legends deals beyond that they simply don't want to.  In the past plenty of talent said they would love to sign, but were never approached by WWE.  But opportunities like Pro Wrestling Tees, Jazwares signing legends, and others hopefully open up more mutually beneficial and flexible financial opportunities for retired wrestlers.

Spot on - with podcasts, pro wrestling tees, the control the wrestlers have with social media etc it’s s far more level playing field than say 2000 when it was either wwe or wcw to make serious cash.

[alphadeltaxray]

Mar 17, 2021 0:00:37 GMT -5 alabamaslammer64 said:

Jazwares I think will eventually start making those guys and it will force WWE to start making more deals to stop Jazwares from making them.

The only problem with that is that they can't put the WWE logo on anything, as far as I know. So if they made, let's say, a Haku figure, it would be weird to have one without a WWE logo on it. And that goes for any WWE wrestler, past or present.

[crush]

It's amusing to me how many people think it's Mattel's choice not to sign guys on their own considering having total control over something like that feels integral the business model WWE has built in the last decade. The brand is key, before anything else. (And before anyone brings up Jeremy and Jakks, the height of CS was 15 years ago at this point. It's a very different world, NTM the fact that there was a ton of acrimony between Jakks and WWE anyway)

[Action Figure Attack]

Mar 17, 2021 15:17:54 GMT -5 stc13 said:

Mar 17, 2021 15:08:01 GMT -5 newgenandy said:

Yep and in the opposite side of the coin they can tell you they need you for raw etc and not every legend wants to have to travel, especially if it’s just a smile and wave thing like they’ve done before in the past with legends

Oh yeah, it's definitely a bad deal for a lot of talent.  Especially anyone who is still active.  WWE get global licensing rights, priority appearances, etc, while the payout really isn't that great compared to the cut WWE takes.  Guys like Steiner, Rock n Roll, etc who are/were still very active on the indies are probably leaving money on the table if they signed a Legends deal.  But it probably makes a lot of sense for estates who have limited opportunities to monetize the wrestler's career or folks like Crush, Adam Bomb, etc who are best known for a gimmick WWE controls.

I just meant that in terms of costs to WWE, it's a very low risk financial agreement for them.  There's not a great reason why they aren't signing talent to legends deals beyond that they simply don't want to.  In the past plenty of talent said they would love to sign, but were never approached by WWE.  But opportunities like Pro Wrestling Tees, Jazwares signing legends, and others hopefully open up more mutually beneficial and flexible financial opportunities for retired wrestlers.

In reality, it’s more complex than you laid out. While I can’t get into specifics on a lot of what you touched on there is actually a huge roster of available Legends. It’s even larger than the talent on both RAW and SmackDown combined. To long time collectors it may not seem this way since their focus is on first time in the line talent and those particular available Legends are less numerous at the moment.

You have to look at it similar to it being its own balanced roster. You can’t sign infinite talent or else you limit or even eliminate the chance of getting the ROI of signing the deals. There are only so many “slots” to fill with various merch.

Some talent will drop off each year and new talent will replace them. Some may come back into the fold at later date. Some remain stable for years and years. Some don’t want to sign at all. Some may not have a chance (Does anyone ever just google the names of the requested talent to see what’s up and why things could be challenging?).

We’re also 10 years into the line at this point and a lot of the achievable talent has been done. But with that said, it doesn’t mean for a second it’s not a priority for me to push for those who should be included in the line. It’s why we got Chyna, Hurricane, Mabel, Valentine, Christian (back briefly) and others.

More 1st time in the line talent are coming. Returns to the line are coming. New signings will continue.

[slimjim23]

Mattel is more in it for making money instead of making collectors happy. Legends just don’t sell that great. Just look at the legends line and how they peg warm for Target. They only ones in that line that sell are the big names like MDM, Taker, Warrior. Which is the main reason Cena will be in the new series

[WCWThunderRosa]

WWE stipulated they want control over who gets signed and made, and they haven’t exactly been in a hiring mood during this pandemmy

[azraelms]

Mar 17, 2021 15:56:52 GMT -5 Action Figure Attack said:

Mar 17, 2021 15:17:54 GMT -5 stc13 said:

Oh yeah, it's definitely a bad deal for a lot of talent.  Especially anyone who is still active.  WWE get global licensing rights, priority appearances, etc, while the payout really isn't that great compared to the cut WWE takes.  Guys like Steiner, Rock n Roll, etc who are/were still very active on the indies are probably leaving money on the table if they signed a Legends deal.  But it probably makes a lot of sense for estates who have limited opportunities to monetize the wrestler's career or folks like Crush, Adam Bomb, etc who are best known for a gimmick WWE controls.

I just meant that in terms of costs to WWE, it's a very low risk financial agreement for them.  There's not a great reason why they aren't signing talent to legends deals beyond that they simply don't want to.  In the past plenty of talent said they would love to sign, but were never approached by WWE.  But opportunities like Pro Wrestling Tees, Jazwares signing legends, and others hopefully open up more mutually beneficial and flexible financial opportunities for retired wrestlers.

In reality, it’s more complex than you laid out. While I can’t get into specifics on a lot of what you touched on there is actually a huge roster of available Legends. It’s even larger than the talent on both RAW and SmackDown combined. To long time collectors it may not seem this way since their focus is on first time in the line talent and those particular available Legends are less numerous at the moment.

You have to look at it similar to it being its own balanced roster. You can’t sign infinite talent or else you limit or even eliminate the chance of getting the ROI of signing the deals. There are only so many “slots” to fill with various merch.

Some talent will drop off each year and new talent will replace them. Some may come back into the fold at later date. Some remain stable for years and years. Some don’t want to sign at all. Some may not have a chance (Does anyone ever just google the names of the requested talent to see what’s up and why things could be challenging?).

We’re also 10 years into the line at this point and a lot of the achievable talent has been done. But with that said, it doesn’t mean for a second it’s not a priority for me to push for those who should be included in the line. It’s why we got Chyna, Hurricane, Mabel, Valentine, Christian (back briefly) and others.

More 1st time in the line talent are coming. Returns to the line are coming. New signings will continue.

Hello Steve,

Thank you for jumping in on this, it is appreciated.

I am interested in the comparison to how Mattel runs their Legends program compared to how Jakks Pacific ran theirs. If Mattel wanted to hire someone to pursue unsigned Legends, can you indicate if WWE would allow that? I am just wondering if that fundamental difference between Mattel 2021 and Jakks Pacific 2001 is a Mattel thing or a WWE thing.