Jonny Flashback
Main Eventer
Joined on: Jul 30, 2014 10:55:59 GMT -5
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Post by Jonny Flashback on Dec 18, 2020 9:20:39 GMT -5
Hey guys. Myself along with a couple of buddies have started a wrestling figure podcast (The 3 Points of Articulation) a few months ago and one of our segments we'll pick a burning topic and talk in detail, aptly named "Break it Down" ... Anyway, in our next episode we are going to discuss the possibility of Jazwares doing an Legends line so wanted to conduct a bit of research if possible so it appears I know what I'm talking about  So with that said, what are the some of the obstacles in the way of Jazwares using certain wrestlers and/or characters? I realise it can't be anyone that is under a WWE Legends deal which I'm assuming will exclude the likes of Jake Roberts and Dusty Rhodes due to their recent Mattel releases. Dustin Rhodes from his WCW days seems a Natural way to go. Would any copyright issues be apparent due to it being a WCW (now WWE) name/likeness? Same for any version of Sting. Those are just some examples of things I thought off the top of my head. What are some of the barriers we may see if Jazwares decide to launch this line? Legal and copyright issues in particular. What can and can't they do? If you want to give us a follow we are predominantly active on Facebook at www.fb.me/the3poa and also have a Twitter @3articulation |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2020 10:40:49 GMT -5
it'll come down to a cross between existing contracts, and if they are "exclusive" with mattel or not, and then if those involved had those gimmicks pre-WWE itself.
Contract: Some contracts with wwe/mattel are "non-exclusive" meaning they can have stuff with WWE and OTHER companies, although it being WWE I would imagine it's exclusive. For example i beleive they own the likeness rights to Eddie G - so not much with his image will get past them in terms of figures etc.
WWE gimmicks vs Pre-WEW gimmicks: this one is simply "did WWE come up with their gimmick/name or not?" - this was why up until very recently Cody could only be called "cody" and not "cody rhodes" - this was because he was "cody rhodes" in ONLY WWE, where as his real first name is Cody. Dustin on the other hand can't be "Goldust" anywhere else or have toys made under that gimmick, but was called The Natural Dustin Rhodes long before his run in WWE, hence why they can't say much about that. [Cody recently got the rights to the Rhodes part of his name i believe.]
so it's fairly straight forward really - if they have a figure with mattel, you probably wont see anything until that deal lapses/they don't sign on again, and then if then they own their gimmick/name also. Sting will be fine to be called sting and have figures with AEW I believe.
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Post by stc13 on Dec 18, 2020 10:56:13 GMT -5
To give you a quick idea of what should be possible, take a look at the Storm Hogan figures or the Legends of Wrestling games from the mid 00's. For example with Hogan, Storm made pretty much every iconic Hogan attire including Hollywood Hogan without issue. But they had to omit anything that would be a WWE owned trademark, such as the NWO logos on the boots or a NWO t-shirt. On the other hand, they did license the artwork for the tshirts for both Hollywood figures from the artist, which is something Mattel/WWE would never do.
If you look closely, you'll see the Legends of Wrestling games use a lot of iconic attires. But there are some minor tweaks made to get around copyright/trademark issues. For example the Piper image on the cover of the game is a shirt that says "Piper!" in the classic "Hot Rod!" font. WWE owns the design for that shirt though, so it was tweaked. One of Owen Hart's attires is actually his Slammys gear (which I'm not sure Jazwares could/would make), but if you look closely instead of saying "Slammy Winner" the text just says "Owen Hart."
Any intellectual property owned by WWE or another party is going to be off limits, including logos or names/phrases. So for example if they signed Bryan Adams, you could probably see a Kronik figure, but Adam Bomb would be unlikely. Same would go for things like the NWO logo, or an iconic tshirt design that WWE controls. But the vast majority of gimmicks and attires, particularly for folks who didn't work for WWE during the 90's "everybody has a profession" era are going to be possible.
Where it gets muddier is that trademarks expire and needed to be renewed. It's sort of a "use it or lose it" situation. WWE actually lost the rights to the War Games for a period of time, and had to buy the rights back from MLW. So tons of gimmick names from the 80's/90's expired. In some cases, the wrestler filed for ownership of the name and used it on the indies. In other cases, nobody had ownership, but the workers continued to wrestle under that name/gimmick on the indies and and trademark was basically considered abandoned. If you google you should be able to find new stories and court cases for Brutus Beefcake and Demolition, who both fell into this situation and continue to use the name/merch outside of WWE.
And of course there are going to be legal messes that Jazwares may decide to just sidestep. The Patriot gimmick is owned by Honky Tony Man, but that is disputed by Del Wilkes, who most notably wrestled under the mask. Del has PWT merch as Del "The Patroit" Wilkes. It might be possible for Jazwares to make a Del Wilkes figure in Patriot gear, but may not be worth the possible legal trouble. Or a Raven figure wouldn't be able to include any of his iconic tshirts (bands, Sandman, etc) unless they licensed the rights from whoever owns those rights.
Anyone under contract to WWE is going to be off limits, at least for the duration of that contract. I expect people like DDP and Jake will end up signing with moving over the AEW merch whenever their WWE deals expire. My gut feeling is those dates are fairly soon, and part of why we're suddenly seeing new WWE figures is partially to undercut demand for future Jazwares figures. But WWE's legends roster is about as small as it has ever been, and there are literally hundreds of possibilities.
So to some of the examples you noted, The Natural Dustin is almost a given, I think. Sting should have very few restrictions besides not using any NWO/Wolfpac logos, and possibly his TNA Joker facepaint. We have seen WWE need to tweak/adjust some attires as well because there's IP that is owned by another company - changing the font on Seth's Bears attire, or leaving the X off of his X-Men gear. But there will be the same ways Jazwares can/will work around limitations if they desire. But on the whole there should be more than enough meat on the bones to make put some figures collectors have been asking for for years.
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Post by stc13 on Dec 18, 2020 11:08:00 GMT -5
it'll come down to a cross between existing contracts, and if they are "exclusive" with mattel or not, and then if those involved had those gimmicks pre-WWE itself. Contract: Some contracts with wwe/mattel are "non-exclusive" meaning they can have stuff with WWE and OTHER companies, although it being WWE I would imagine it's exclusive. For example i beleive they own the likeness rights to Eddie G - so not much with his image will get past them in terms of figures etc. WWE gimmicks vs Pre-WEW gimmicks: this one is simply "did WWE come up with their gimmick/name or not?" - this was why up until very recently Cody could only be called "cody" and not "cody rhodes" - this was because he was "cody rhodes" in ONLY WWE, where as his real first name is Cody. Dustin on the other hand can't be "Goldust" anywhere else or have toys made under that gimmick, but was called The Natural Dustin Rhodes long before his run in WWE, hence why they can't say much about that. [Cody recently got the rights to the Rhodes part of his name i believe.] so it's fairly straight forward really - if they have a figure with mattel, you probably wont see anything until that deal lapses/they don't sign on again, and then if then they own their gimmick/name also. Sting will be fine to be called sting and have figures with AEW I believe. I actually think Eddie is on something resembling the standard Legends deal. Vickie tweeted that WWE owned "rights to Eddie's name, image, and likeness." But Eddie has had a PWT store up for at least a year. I think people (myself included) read that tweet at face value, but there's no way a PWT store would be open if WWE had full legal ownership over licensing Eddie's estate. So either it was some kind of deal that had some sort of regular mutual renewal agreement that the family terminated, or Vickie may not have been super clear in her tweet. Not saying that means we'll see him in the Jazwares line, though. |
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cantu1984
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Post by cantu1984 on Dec 18, 2020 11:24:17 GMT -5
I wonder since AEW has some NWA wrestlers on the show that they could make some legends from their NWA days? If I was Billy Corgan I would want the NWA name out in public by any means.
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Post by stc13 on Dec 18, 2020 12:13:02 GMT -5
I wonder since AEW has some NWA wrestlers on the show that they could make some legends from their NWA days? If I was Billy Corgan I would want the NWA name out in public by any means. There's nothing stopping them from making NWA era Arn, Tully, etc, with or without an agreement with Billy. What I'd LOVE to see is something worked out with licensing for the belts. Imagine if we got Arn and Tully with the NWA Tag belts. Or Kerry Von Erich or Ronnie Garvin with the NWA heavyweight belt. Maybe there's a way to work in the NWA logo or a plug for their current show on the box. It's totally fantasy booking at this stage, but I think there's a way where everybody could make money and obviously there's already a working relationship between AEW and NWA. |
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guster
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Post by guster on Dec 18, 2020 12:27:08 GMT -5
I wonder since AEW has some NWA wrestlers on the show that they could make some legends from their NWA days? If I was Billy Corgan I would want the NWA name out in public by any means. There's nothing stopping them from making NWA era Arn, Tully, etc, with or without an agreement with Billy. What I'd LOVE to see is something worked out with licensing for the belts. Imagine if we got Arn and Tully with the NWA Tag belts. Or Kerry Von Erich or Ronnie Garvin with the NWA heavyweight belt. Maybe there's a way to work in the NWA logo or a plug for their current show on the box. It's totally fantasy booking at this stage, but I think there's a way where everybody could make money and obviously there's already a working relationship between AEW and NWA. That'd be tricky. Not only would you have to get the NWA's permission, but you have to get the beltmaker's permission as well. I don't know if there's enough meat on the bone for AEW to potentially split the sales of a figure 3-4 ways. Here's my list of guys who I think are high enough marquee and are available: AEW contractedSting Taz Arn Anderson Tully Blanchard 80s Tony Schiavone - this would be more of an online exclusive I'd think or a chase Non-AEW Steiners Road Warriors Nikita Koloff Raven Sabu Sandman Owen Hart - although I personally think a Super7 deal is more likely |
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Post by stc13 on Dec 18, 2020 12:55:26 GMT -5
There's nothing stopping them from making NWA era Arn, Tully, etc, with or without an agreement with Billy. What I'd LOVE to see is something worked out with licensing for the belts. Imagine if we got Arn and Tully with the NWA Tag belts. Or Kerry Von Erich or Ronnie Garvin with the NWA heavyweight belt. Maybe there's a way to work in the NWA logo or a plug for their current show on the box. It's totally fantasy booking at this stage, but I think there's a way where everybody could make money and obviously there's already a working relationship between AEW and NWA. That'd be tricky. Not only would you have to get the NWA's permission, but you have to get the beltmaker's permission as well. I don't know if there's enough meat on the bone for AEW to potentially split the sales of a figure 3-4 ways. Here's my list of guys who I think are high enough marquee and are available: AEW contractedSting Taz Arn Anderson Tully Blanchard 80s Tony Schiavone - this would be more of an online exclusive I'd think or a chase Non-AEW Steiners Road Warriors Nikita Koloff Raven Sabu Sandman Owen Hart - although I personally think a Super7 deal is more likely I believe all of the iconic NWA belts are Reg Parks designs, and Dave Millican owns the rights to all of the Parks designs. Dave also did the AEW belt designs, so there is a relationship there. Agreed that slicing the pie 4 ways could be an issue, but my thinking is that Billy needs all the revenue he can get right now. It's definitely a longshot, though. |
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Post by Patrick Bateman (original) on Dec 18, 2020 14:16:41 GMT -5
A couple things. Jeremy said there will 99.9% be a legends line.
Cody did get his Rhodes name back because WWE let the copyright lapse.
Storm got around the nWo logo, by doing a hWo logo instead for Hogan World Order.
And I thought Salvatore Sincere owns the Patriot gimmick? Did he sell it to Honky Tonk Man?
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Post by WCWThunderRosa on Dec 18, 2020 16:14:28 GMT -5
The issue comes down to IP ownership and it varies from person to person but it can be simplified a little bit. The main issue really is WWE owning anything. I don’t see anything owned by Impact or NWA as likely but it’s more likely than anything WWE owns.
The first issue is contracts. If Jake & DDP have exclusivity in their Legends contracts then they won’t be able to be made until they expire.
The second issue is ownership of gimmicks. No Goldust, for example. But WWE doesn’t own Dustin Rhodes.
The third issue is ownership of associated IP, and this is a big problem for a guy like Chris Jericho. Whereas Sting owns everything on his gear except the Wolfpac logos, a lot of Chris Jericho’s tights have logos that were probably designed in-house by WWE artists. So they would have to really pick and choose what they can do with retro Jericho. Everything he wore pre-Undisputed Champion is probably good, but after that it gets into questionable territory. They might be able to get away with his 2007 code tights but is that really a risk worth being taken?
Basically what it all comes down to is not using anything that WWE owns and that’s pretty avoidable for most pre-2001 stuff and for guys who never worked for the Fed after that point it is also easy to avoid. Give me a Curry Man figure plz
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Post by WCWThunderRosa on Dec 18, 2020 16:17:19 GMT -5
It would be really nice to not have to pay a ton of money tracking down old TNA Christian Cage and Jeff Jarrett figures just to get NWA belts is all I’m saying
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2020 16:28:13 GMT -5
No, WWE doesn't own Dustin Rhodes or Sting in gear that those guys designed, commissioned and paid for themselves and has no WWE owned iconography on them.
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Post by LA Times on Dec 18, 2020 16:57:06 GMT -5
No, WWE doesn't own Dustin Rhodes or Sting in gear that those guys designed, commissioned and paid for themselves and has no WWE owned iconography on them. In Dustin Rhodes' case, I dont see how a company can own plain trunks and knee pads  |
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Post by WCWThunderRosa on Dec 18, 2020 17:01:02 GMT -5
No, WWE doesn't own Dustin Rhodes or Sting in gear that those guys designed, commissioned and paid for themselves and has no WWE owned iconography on them. In Dustin Rhodes' case, I dont see how a company can own plain trunks and knee pads This is why there’s not a lot of issues with most people pre-2001 |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2020 17:39:09 GMT -5
No, WWE doesn't own Dustin Rhodes or Sting in gear that those guys designed, commissioned and paid for themselves and has no WWE owned iconography on them. In Dustin Rhodes' case, I dont see how a company can own plain trunks and knee pads People really think owning footage = owning that person's likeness and that's not how it works at all lmao. |
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Post by stc13 on Dec 18, 2020 18:34:38 GMT -5
In Dustin Rhodes' case, I dont see how a company can own plain trunks and knee pads People really think owning footage = owning that person's likeness and that's not how it works at all lmao. I think it goes back to Bill/Steve saying they could only make figures in looks that were in the WWE tape library when asked about TNA era figures of AJ Styles, Joe, etc. But that’s just another of WWE’s weird rules that some people interpreted as being some sort of wide sweeping law. |
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Post by Ministry of Darkness on Dec 18, 2020 19:46:30 GMT -5
With Jeremy anything is possible since most of the classic superstar line was contracted to Jakks and not WWE at the time. Jeremy will sign alumi talent under Jazzware contracts even if those talents never worked for AEW so hopefully guys like Owen Hart get made under this new Legends line whenever it starts.
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Jonny Flashback
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Post by Jonny Flashback on Dec 19, 2020 3:12:45 GMT -5
Thanks so much guys, Overwhelmed with the contributions so far. I'd especially have to credit stc13, you seem like a God in this territory!
Really looking forward to discussing the possibilities of this line on the podcast and then see what Jeremy and Jazwares can produce.
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inevitabledeth
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Post by inevitabledeth on Dec 29, 2020 16:56:51 GMT -5
With Jeremy anything is possible since most of the classic superstar line was contracted to Jakks and not WWE at the time. Jeremy will sign alumi talent under Jazzware contracts even if those talents never worked for AEW so hopefully guys like Owen Hart get made under this new Legends line whenever it starts. Here's hoping a Nick Mondo figure is a possibility as he is a part of the AEW staff despite not wrestling for them. |
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Post by LK3 on Dec 29, 2020 17:19:30 GMT -5
With Jeremy anything is possible since most of the classic superstar line was contracted to Jakks and not WWE at the time. Jeremy will sign alumi talent under Jazzware contracts even if those talents never worked for AEW so hopefully guys like Owen Hart get made under this new Legends line whenever it starts. Here's hoping a Nick Mondo figure is a possibility as he is a part of the AEW staff despite not wrestling for them. Agreed, a Mondo figure would be super cool. |
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