Genetic Freak
Mid-Carder
Not Normal
Joined on: Mar 27, 2015 0:44:28 GMT -5
Posts: 184 
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Post by Genetic Freak on May 19, 2020 0:35:47 GMT -5
Well they are DSotR shirts... Which is completely understandable, I just don’t like how the logo is in the middle of the heart. |
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Post by rowdy1971 on May 19, 2020 9:27:57 GMT -5
Martha is 1000% percent right standing her ground on everything she wants. It was her husband that was taken from her, not just some wrestler. Time heals and forgiveness is given, but, things will never be forgotten.
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Post by bWo on May 19, 2020 18:55:09 GMT -5
The problem is Owen was a company guy in a company that didn't give a shart about him. If he was uncomfortable with the stunt he should have said no. Martha seems to forget that.
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Post by snowjorden on May 20, 2020 11:33:17 GMT -5
The problem is Owen was a company guy in a company that didn't give a shart about him. If he was uncomfortable with the stunt he should have said no. Martha seems to forget that. In 1999 the business, specifically the WWF, was still very much operated under the premise that if you said no, someone else would take your spot and you would be done. Owen had a family to worry about bringing money home to, therefore it's very logical to make the conclusion he didn't feel he could say no. It's kind of disrespectful for you to flipp@ntly say he should've just said no, by the way. |
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Post by stc13 on May 20, 2020 17:08:52 GMT -5
The problem is Owen was a company guy in a company that didn't give a shart about him. If he was uncomfortable with the stunt he should have said no. Martha seems to forget that. In 1999 the business, specifically the WWF, was still very much operated under the premise that if you said no, someone else would take your spot and you would be done. Owen had a family to worry about bringing money home to, therefore it's very logical to make the conclusion he didn't feel he could say no. It's kind of disrespectful for you to flipp@ntly say he should've just said no, by the way. The economics were also very different. Guys were making a big chunk of their annual income off of PPV payoffs. Rock the boat and you'll be dropped from major angles and have your income go with it. It's tragic no matter how you cut it. But I hate that this happened in part because you had an amazing talent stuck in a dead end comedy gimmick. I wonder what could have been - within a matter of months you have Kurt Angle, Jericho, Taz, Benoit, Malenko, Eddie all coming into the company. And part of me sees Owen's skill set being very similar to Eddie - amazing worker who punched above his weight class. Great heel, could play comedy and serious gimmicks well. I don't know that he ever gets the push Eddie did because of his physique and because he's a Hart. But it's tough not to wonder. Owen was red hot in 94 and 97, but I think he had that "tag wrestler" label that he couldn't shake in Vince's mind. |
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Post by bWo on May 20, 2020 18:32:29 GMT -5
The problem is Owen was a company guy in a company that didn't give a shart about him. If he was uncomfortable with the stunt he should have said no. Martha seems to forget that. In 1999 the business, specifically the WWF, was still very much operated under the premise that if you said no, someone else would take your spot and you would be done. Owen had a family to worry about bringing money home to, therefore it's very logical to make the conclusion he didn't feel he could say no. It's kind of disrespectful for you to flipp@ntly say he should've just said no, by the way. Someone was going to take his spot? So Owen wouldn't have been a mid-carder/jobber with a joke of a gimmick that he didn't like in a garbage feud with The Godfather? He would have lost that spot? We're talking about a guy with little to no training descending from a catwalk 80 feet up. He didn't like it. He wasn't comfortable with it. He was at work and was asked to do something beyond his means of training that only came with disastrous consequences if something went wrong. He's a human before he's a wrestler. He should have told them no. There's nothing disrespectful about that. |
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Post by bWo on May 20, 2020 18:35:50 GMT -5
In 1999 the business, specifically the WWF, was still very much operated under the premise that if you said no, someone else would take your spot and you would be done. Owen had a family to worry about bringing money home to, therefore it's very logical to make the conclusion he didn't feel he could say no. It's kind of disrespectful for you to flipp@ntly say he should've just said no, by the way. It's tragic no matter how you cut it. But I hate that this happened in part because you had an amazing talent stuck in a dead end comedy gimmick. I wonder what could have been - within a matter of months you have Kurt Angle, Jericho, Taz, Benoit, Malenko, Eddie all coming into the company. And part of me sees Owen's skill set being very similar to Eddie - amazing worker who punched above his weight class. Great heel, could play comedy and serious gimmicks well. I don't know that he ever gets the push Eddie did because of his physique and because he's a Hart. But it's tough not to wonder. Owen was red hot in 94 and 97, but I think he had that "tag wrestler" label that he couldn't shake in Vince's mind. The Blue Blazer wasn't going to be in any "major angles." It was, in your words, "a dead end gimmick." The character was going nowhere, and Owen was (against his wishes) risking a lot for it. WCW would have been happy to give him a sack of cash to Join Bret down south. The Montreal Screw Job (in wrestling years) was still very recent. The business was still hot. It was probably close to the most "pull" Owen would have had while there. If he was ever in a position to say no, it was then. By ALL ACCOUNTS Owen was one of the nicest people you'd ever meet. It's crazy to think tarnishing that with some selfishness or greed may have actually saved his life. On the other side of the coin, Vince McMahon is the ultimate scumbag. Given the conditions he was putting Owen in, THE SLIGHTEST bit of second guessing by Owen should have been the end of it. Sting had come down from the roof a poop ton of times in WCW and nothing went wrong, Sting isn't Owen Hart though. As soon as Owen had some trepidation, Vince McMahon as a human being should have put a stop to it. I'm not going to go into details on what I think of Martha and the kids, but I'm glad they got what they got, and wish it would have been more. |
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Post by stc13 on May 20, 2020 20:33:11 GMT -5
The economics were also very different. Guys were making a big chunk of their annual income off of PPV payoffs. Rock the boat and you'll be dropped from major angles and have your income go with it.It's tragic no matter how you cut it. But I hate that this happened in part because you had an amazing talent stuck in a dead end comedy gimmick. I wonder what could have been - within a matter of months you have Kurt Angle, Jericho, Taz, Benoit, Malenko, Eddie all coming into the company. And part of me sees Owen's skill set being very similar to Eddie - amazing worker who punched above his weight class. Great heel, could play comedy and serious gimmicks well. I don't know that he ever gets the push Eddie did because of his physique and because he's a Hart. But it's tough not to wonder. Owen was red hot in 94 and 97, but I think he had that "tag wrestler" label that he couldn't shake in Vince's mind. The Blue Blazer wasn't going to be in any "major angles." It was, in your words, "a dead end gimmick." The character was going nowhere, and Owen was (against his wishes) risking a lot for it. WCW would have been happy to give him a sack of cash to Join Bret down south. The Montreal Screw Job (in wrestling years) was still very recent. The business was still hot. It was probably close to the most "pull" Owen would have had while there. If he was ever in a position to say no, it was then. By ALL ACCOUNTS Owen was one of the nicest people you'd ever meet. It's crazy to think tarnishing that with some selfishness or greed may have actually saved his life. On the other side of the coin, Vince McMahon is the ultimate scumbag. Given the conditions he was putting Owen in, THE SLIGHTEST bit of second guessing by Owen should have been the end of it. Sting had come down from the roof a poop ton of times in WCW and nothing went wrong, Sting isn't Owen Hart though. As soon as Owen had some trepidation, Vince McMahon as a human being should have put a stop to it. I'm not going to go into details on what I think of Martha and the kids, but I'm glad they got what they got, and wish it would have been more. He was booked to win the IC belt that night, and was in an angle with Jarrett that was prominently featured on tv. He had signed a 5 year deal shortly before the Screwjob. Pissing off the boss could mean losing six figures in income if he's dropped down the card or loses bookings. I'm not arguing that it's right, or that Owen shouldn't have been able to say he wasn't comfortable and have that be a hard stop. But WWE has a pretty long history of a toxic corporate culture - even to this day with recent events with Roman, Sami, and David Starr. I'm just saying that toxic corporate cultures can, perhaps intentionally, muddy the waters to put people between a rock and a hard place. |
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Post by bWo on May 21, 2020 20:21:20 GMT -5
The Blue Blazer wasn't going to be in any "major angles." It was, in your words, "a dead end gimmick." The character was going nowhere, and Owen was (against his wishes) risking a lot for it. WCW would have been happy to give him a sack of cash to Join Bret down south. The Montreal Screw Job (in wrestling years) was still very recent. The business was still hot. It was probably close to the most "pull" Owen would have had while there. If he was ever in a position to say no, it was then. By ALL ACCOUNTS Owen was one of the nicest people you'd ever meet. It's crazy to think tarnishing that with some selfishness or greed may have actually saved his life. On the other side of the coin, Vince McMahon is the ultimate scumbag. Given the conditions he was putting Owen in, THE SLIGHTEST bit of second guessing by Owen should have been the end of it. Sting had come down from the roof a poop ton of times in WCW and nothing went wrong, Sting isn't Owen Hart though. As soon as Owen had some trepidation, Vince McMahon as a human being should have put a stop to it. I'm not going to go into details on what I think of Martha and the kids, but I'm glad they got what they got, and wish it would have been more. He was booked to win the IC belt that night, and was in an angle with Jarrett that was prominently featured on tv. He had signed a 5 year deal shortly before the Screwjob. Pissing off the boss could mean losing six figures in income if he's dropped down the card or loses bookings. I'm not arguing that it's right, or that Owen shouldn't have been able to say he wasn't comfortable and have that be a hard stop. But WWE has a pretty long history of a toxic corporate culture - even to this day with recent events with Roman, Sami, and David Starr. I'm just saying that toxic corporate cultures can, perhaps intentionally, muddy the waters to put people between a rock and a hard place. Owen re-negotiated his contract after the screw job and got a raise out of it. Mick Foley skipped RAW the next night in protest of what Vince did to Bret in Montreal and it didn't hurt him. Owen was the most loved guy in the locker room by all accounts. If he told Vince he wanted out of his contract I don't think Vince would say no and then let him sit home and make no money to take care of his family. There were people in that locker room with integrity and stroke (Austin, Taker, Foley, etc.) who loved Owen and wouldn't have just let Vince hold him hostage like that. Given what he'd just done to Bret, I don't even think Vince would have held him hostage like that. I've seen a lot of wrestlers say one of the reasons he stayed was he was finally out of Bret's shadow. Bret was always going to be the "leader" of the Harts. With him gone it was Owen's time to shine. Following Brett to WCW wouldn't have changed that. Makes perfect sense as well. It's just such a shame. I remember Debra the most from the Tribute show. Crying hysterically. Owen was apparently a huge practical joker. She was saying she was hoping this was all a big joke and that he was was going to pop out and surprise everyone, but she knew he wasn't going to. |
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Post by snowjorden on May 21, 2020 22:22:36 GMT -5
Watched the Dark Side of the Ring episode earlier which was great but too short.
On the topic of Owens spot at the time of his death, sure he was midcard as a comedy character. Shortly thereafter though Russo was out, and you'd have to imagine Owen would've been able to drop the phony gimmick stuff.
WWE over the course of that 5 year deal Owen signed would see the debut of Edge & Christian, Kurt Angle, The Radicals and others. Not only were we robbed of dream matches, but it's quite realistic to believe had that night not occured he would have been booked better, relatively soon thereafter as Russo left by October of the year.
The change in the release mechanism ultimately resulted in his death, question is, which WWE upper management member was it that specifically thought the lock release mechanism looked clunky and took too long, thus ordering the change. That person should be charged with murder..
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Post by JTG on May 23, 2020 10:04:10 GMT -5
It's such a shame how everything went down with Owen. I've often wondered what his place in WWE would have been going into the 2000's. Certainly a lot of great matchups would have taken place. I haven't listened to the full Talk is Jericho podcast, but I have watched the Dark Side of the Ring episode. It was really interesting to finally hear more from Martha's side. All I ever remember reading over the years was from other wrestler's perspectives asking her to let Owen go into the Hall of Fame as well as other articles that kind of made Martha out to be an antagonist.
I have to say after watching the episode, I 100% understand why she doesn't want to allow WWE to profit off of Owen by going into the WWE Hall of Fame. It sucks for wrestling fans, more specifically Owen Hart fans. But she truly doesn't owe it to anyone to sign some sort of Legends contract with the company she feels is responsible for his death. Thankfully, we have years of Owen Hart matches that we can still watch to remember his legacy. We really don't need him in the Hall of Fame to validate how incredible of a talent and person he was.
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Post by vampiroporvida on May 23, 2020 11:04:08 GMT -5
I feel like the odd man out here, Blue Blazer was a gimmick I liked a lot.  |
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wheeljack83
Main Eventer
Joined on: Feb 16, 2018 23:52:48 GMT -5
Posts: 1,353
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Post by wheeljack83 on May 25, 2020 1:40:03 GMT -5
Martha is 1000% percent right standing her ground on everything she wants. It was her husband that was taken from her, not just some wrestler. Time heals and forgiveness is given, but, things will never be forgotten. No one has any right to give her **** ever again. EVER. |
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briskski
Mid-Carder
I came here to chew bubble gum and kick ass.
Joined on: May 10, 2020 19:27:59 GMT -5
Posts: 98
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Post by briskski on May 25, 2020 10:53:24 GMT -5
  Geezes that's the best Owen image they had!?? I don't like the look on his face. Not flattering :/ |
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briskski
Mid-Carder
I came here to chew bubble gum and kick ass.
Joined on: May 10, 2020 19:27:59 GMT -5
Posts: 98
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Post by briskski on May 25, 2020 10:59:09 GMT -5
If Owen was around I'm sure he would not exactly be thrilled that his wife is causing the next generation of fans to have absolutely no idea who he was, other than perhaps being Bret's brother. I think he would understand her reason but not agree with it. Women can take things too far sometimes. I think Bret knows what's best for Owen's legacy personally.
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wheeljack83
Main Eventer
Joined on: Feb 16, 2018 23:52:48 GMT -5
Posts: 1,353
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Post by wheeljack83 on May 28, 2020 17:43:24 GMT -5
If Owen was around I'm sure he would not exactly be thrilled that his wife is causing the next generation of fans to have absolutely no idea who he was, other than perhaps being Bret's brother. I think he would understand her reason but not agree with it. Women can take things too far sometimes. I think Bret knows what's best for Owen's legacy personally. What makes any fan an expert on what Owen Hart would want more so than his own wife and the mother of his children? Owen Hart died 21 years ago. We're still talking about him today. She made a deal with PWTees to get new shirts made. He was inducted into the Pro Wrestling Hall of Fame. How exactly is she the one making us "forget" about who he was? She worked on this documentary for crying out loud. This documentary was VICE TV's highest rated program ever. This documentary is all about Owen Hart. I've seen this argument get tossed around. It really doesn't hold water. No one is forgetting about Owen Hart. |
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briskski
Mid-Carder
I came here to chew bubble gum and kick ass.
Joined on: May 10, 2020 19:27:59 GMT -5
Posts: 98
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Post by briskski on May 30, 2020 12:57:56 GMT -5
Well considering WWE holds most of his matches and other material which has been prohibited from being released any further than it has been. I would say yeah she is very much holding the key to the lock. The king of hearts dvd was a complete joke. Waste of effort in even releasing it.When she was approached about the Pro Wrestling Hall of Fame even that subject had to be brought up carefully. She's okay with him being recognized for his amateur career. In terms of his professional career she has to be be talked into it. The woman has no love for the sport. She does certain things to honor her husband, but she would rather not give wrestling anymore of him. I spoke to Bret when I saw him doing one of his talks. He is very much of the same opinion as is the family. These people were his family and should have an idea of what Owen would have wanted. The fact that the hof has every heart foundation but him is a real shame. That t-shirt and documentary deal was offering her a lot of cash, yeah of course she took it. But it's business that's all. This was not for the fans.
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Post by greenjack1992 on May 30, 2020 13:23:57 GMT -5
Martha is 1000% percent right standing her ground on everything she wants. It was her husband that was taken from her, not just some wrestler. Time heals and forgiveness is given, but, things will never be forgotten. Completely agree. |
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Joined on: Apr 16, 2024 0:47:57 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2020 18:07:47 GMT -5
Well considering WWE holds most of his matches and other material which has been prohibited from being released any further than it has been. I would say yeah she is very much holding the key to the lock. The king of hearts dvd was a complete joke. Waste of effort in even releasing it.When she was approached about the Pro Wrestling Hall of Fame even that subject had to be brought up carefully. She's okay with him being recognized for his amateur career. In terms of his professional career she has to be be talked into it. The woman has no love for the sport. She does certain things to honor her husband, but she would rather not give wrestling anymore of him. I spoke to Bret when I saw him doing one of his talks. He is very much of the same opinion as is the family. These people were his family and should have an idea of what Owen would have wanted. The fact that the hof has every heart foundation but him is a real shame. That t-shirt and documentary deal was offering her a lot of cash, yeah of course she took it. But it's business that's all. This was not for the fans. Every family is different, but I can say with certainty if I died tomorrow, I trust my wife more than anyone to know what I'd want. Likewise, she would trust me more than her siblings or parents to know what she'd want. We are close with our parents and one of her sisters is pretty much her best friend, so it's not like it's a toxic situation. At a certain point you've spent more time as a spouse than you did living at home as a kid. I can't guarantee Owen was the same, but given that he and Martha met around the same age my wife and I did, and he was older than me when he passed, I think it's a reasonable guess that he would have trusted his wife more than anyone to carry out his legacy. |
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briskski
Mid-Carder
I came here to chew bubble gum and kick ass.
Joined on: May 10, 2020 19:27:59 GMT -5
Posts: 98
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Post by briskski on May 30, 2020 19:42:17 GMT -5
I would agree. A spouse would in their mind do what's best for the other. But in terms of wrestling I think he and Bret spent more time talking about the business, living it, etc. When he went home it was his family time. Wrestling was not his concern while we was with Martha and the kids. So I doubt he spent much time discussing it. Bret said he was supportive of Martha and the kids, just not how his legacy is being treated. Usually it's The Hart family that accepts most of the hof awards, as Martha doesn't really want involvement. So just from what I heard Bret say I trust him on this issue at least. But everyone has their own opinion.
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