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Post by nyk9327 on Jun 9, 2007 21:31:53 GMT -5
Yea, Zito was the biggest free agent pitcher this past year and if the Mets had gotten him I think it woulda been a wrap if Pedro comes back healthy.
He's not really a go after you pitcher though. He doesn't throw overpowering stuff.
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Post by Jean-Ralphio on Jun 9, 2007 21:47:17 GMT -5
Plug them into a rotation, sure, but they can not lead you to the playoffs. Zito maybe, but no way is Bueherle a #1, I am sorry. Zito can be considered an 'ace' and we have this debate monthly, but I wouldnt put him in the top 5 pitchers in baseball, maybe not the top 10. He can lead a team to the playoffs, but not carry.
And Pedro Martinez will never be the same he was before this surgery, he will be a very so-so pitcher before he decides to retire after his Mets contract
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Post by ThugSuperstar on Jun 9, 2007 21:51:26 GMT -5
I just don't understand what some of you consider to be an ace. Zito guarantees to give you a 3.00 ERA every season, which basically means he gives his team a chance to win nearly every game he starts. He stays healthy and takes the ball every 5 days...if that's not an ace, I don't know what is.
And as far as not leading his team in the postseason, he's only had one start, which came last year against the Tigers, that isn't considered a quality start. So, I don't know where that argument came from.
I never said Mark Buherle was an ace, but he's a fantastic 2nd - 4th starter in any team's rotation.
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Post by taker1 on Jun 9, 2007 22:00:39 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but I don't agree with this talk about Zito at all. T1 is actually saying Barry Zito isn't an ace? If Zito isn't considered an ace by being one of the top 5 pitchers in baseball, who is? Some of you guys have way too high standards. You can bash Zito and Buherle as much as you'd like, but you plug both of those guys in any rotation and I like my chances at making the playoffs. I think Zito is a perfect 2nd starter. Good ERA of about 3.60-4.00, and lots of innings. But if he's your ace, your rotation can't be that great.
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Post by Mike LOL on Jun 9, 2007 22:03:43 GMT -5
Clemens gave the Yanks all they could ask for...solid outing all around when you consider it's basically his first start of the season. 6 IP, 3 ER...I'd take that from him every time out. He doesn't have to be an ace, he just has to be a quality pitcher. And that's exactly what he was today. If only he could face a glorified AAA lineup every time out..
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Post by ThugSuperstar on Jun 9, 2007 23:39:14 GMT -5
Clemens gave the Yanks all they could ask for...solid outing all around when you consider it's basically his first start of the season. 6 IP, 3 ER...I'd take that from him every time out. He doesn't have to be an ace, he just has to be a quality pitcher. And that's exactly what he was today. If only he could face a glorified AAA lineup every time out.. Facing a team like Pittsburgh is the best way to start for Clemens. He's worked his way up through the different levels of the minor leagues and goes against the Mets next. What did you expect from him, exactly? 8 shutout innings in his first start of the year? You take what you get...Clemens gave the Yankees a solid outing today.
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Post by ThugSuperstar on Jun 9, 2007 23:44:55 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but I don't agree with this talk about Zito at all. T1 is actually saying Barry Zito isn't an ace? If Zito isn't considered an ace by being one of the top 5 pitchers in baseball, who is? Some of you guys have way too high standards. You can bash Zito and Buherle as much as you'd like, but you plug both of those guys in any rotation and I like my chances at making the playoffs. I think Zito is a perfect 2nd starter. Good ERA of about 3.60-4.00, and lots of innings. But if he's your ace, your rotation can't be that great. The worst year of his career was in 2002 when he posted a 4.48 ERA for the season. Every other year it's been in the 3's or 2's. Roy Halladay has had, give or take, the same numbers or numbers slightly worse than Zito, but people consider him one of the top pitchers in the league. For Zito to post an ERA in the 3's on a regular basis while pitching in the AL is excellent. I just don't see how you can say Zito isn't one of the top starters in the league.
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Post by Jean-Ralphio on Jun 10, 2007 0:39:13 GMT -5
Roy Halladays a **** though
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Post by nyk9327 on Jun 10, 2007 0:50:55 GMT -5
Apparantly it is written in stone that Pedro is retiring after his Mets contract.
I'll tell you this much. I'd still take Zito over every pitcher in the AL East except Roy, Beckett, Wang and Kazmir.
Those are young aces so I guess that's my two cents on the debate.
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Post by taker1 on Jun 10, 2007 0:59:30 GMT -5
Matsuzaka vs. Mr. Deadbeat Daddy tomorrow. Awesome.
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DWright
Main Eventer
Joined on: Jan 7, 2005 18:30:58 GMT -5
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Post by DWright on Jun 10, 2007 1:00:10 GMT -5
Apparantly it is written in stone that Pedro is retiring after his Mets contract. I'll tell you this much. I'd still take Zito over every pitcher in the AL East except Roy, Beckett, Wang and Kazmir. Those are young aces so I guess that's my two cents on the debate. ...Wang? The luckiest pitcher in baseball? Stop. The AL East will have some nice pitchers coming up, and lets face it, Zito is a 2/3 at this point. If I was drafting, I would take Hughes, Shields and possibly even Price over Zito (especially with his contract) and I'd have a hard time deciding between Bedard and Zito.
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Post by nyk9327 on Jun 10, 2007 1:08:05 GMT -5
Apparantly it is written in stone that Pedro is retiring after his Mets contract. I'll tell you this much. I'd still take Zito over every pitcher in the AL East except Roy, Beckett, Wang and Kazmir. Those are young aces so I guess that's my two cents on the debate. ...Wang? The luckiest pitcher in baseball? Stop. The AL East will have some nice pitchers coming up, and lets face it, Zito is a 2/3 at this point. If I was drafting, I would take Hughes, Shields and possibly even Price over Zito (especially with his contract) and I'd have a hard time deciding between Bedard and Zito. Luckiest is not something I agree with but yea, he's a groundball pitcher and he's not overpowering. Same with Zito pretty much minus the choppers. Wang's still got plenty of time to fail but Zito is over in the NL not even taking advantage of the easier lineup's. If you wanna talk about run support just look at the perfect record I named out of those 4. I'll give you the nod here honestly because I trust Wang but at the same time I don't see him as dominant. Also unlike some fans I'll flat out just say it. I'm not gonna ride his jock because I'm a fan of his team. Damn if anything out of those 4 I named I might take Zito over Halladay honestly... he's over 30 now I think and has been injured. Recently looks horrible but I don't base my next statement on that.... His best days might be behind him (gasp, Clemens 14/15 years ago).
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DWright
Main Eventer
Joined on: Jan 7, 2005 18:30:58 GMT -5
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Post by DWright on Jun 10, 2007 1:18:59 GMT -5
WHIP last year - 1.31 WHIP this year - 1.23 (improving, not walking people, bats still finding the ball)
Last year - 218 IP - 76 K This year 62.2 IP - 29 K
Name a pitcher that's had a successfull career and averaged under 5 K/9IP.
Wang is a lucky pitcher, cut and dry.
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Post by nyk9327 on Jun 10, 2007 2:05:43 GMT -5
yea the whip is not tha tgreat but isn't Zito's higher?
Oh and for your question... Andy Pettitte is pretty close.
I find it hard to believe a guy wins 19 games (which sure one good year can happen on the chips falling as they may) but then comes back this year and has been productive.
I said I give you the nod that he's not better than Zito overall... what are you trying to prove? That his career thus far is luck? Isn't he like 2 years into his MLB career pitching in one of the hardest divisions in baseball for offensive production?
Like I said I don't really proclaim he's Cy young but uhhh.. he came in second in the voting last year and he's given up 3 home runs ALL year, he's had one pretty bad outing, argueably 2 this year and his batting avg against is pretty nice.
I don't get where this "luck" is coming from. He's a groundball pitcher and doesn't K a lot of guys, you are basing this off of strikeouts? Doesn't ERA mean anything anymore?
Your main point here is luck and strikeouts? Then I could easily say John Maine's career is luck.
If you are saying he's gonna get worse or he'll never repeat this production again then sure I won't argue, it could happen. I'm not here to make biased predictions. I agree that he's not dominant or gonna be a lock for solid/great career... but how can I base anything off of luck?
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Deleted
Joined on: Oct 7, 2024 23:42:09 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2007 2:55:44 GMT -5
Roy Halladays a **** though youre an idiot ralpho
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Post by Lorenzo Alcazar on Jun 10, 2007 3:07:13 GMT -5
I was at the game today...It was amazing to see The Rocket again, the game was amazing and the crowd was on fire from the first pitch.
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Post by Lorenzo Alcazar on Jun 10, 2007 3:14:59 GMT -5
Lorenzo and the Nationals guy were the 2 that jumped off the boat lol Basically... I think Lorenzo jumped off the boat after the first 2 weeks of the season. I never jumped off any boat or bridge, all I said was that the odds are never in a teams favor when they put themselves 14.5 back AT ANY POINT. I said from the start that EVENTUALLY they would begin to play well, I just said I hoped it wasn't too late at that point. Because you would hate for them to start to play really well and STILL not be able to catch up...which still very well may be the case. I am not calling them dead OR World Series Champs......All I can say is that for the last 2 weeks, I like how they are playing. Let's see what happens.
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Deleted
Joined on: Oct 7, 2024 23:42:09 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2007 3:34:55 GMT -5
yankees w/ 5 wins in a row = ws champs
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DWright
Main Eventer
Joined on: Jan 7, 2005 18:30:58 GMT -5
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Post by DWright on Jun 10, 2007 4:11:42 GMT -5
yea the whip is not tha tgreat but isn't Zito's higher? Oh and for your question... Andy Pettitte is pretty close. I find it hard to believe a guy wins 19 games (which sure one good year can happen on the chips falling as they may) but then comes back this year and has been productive. I said I give you the nod that he's not better than Zito overall... what are you trying to prove? That his career thus far is luck? Isn't he like 2 years into his MLB career pitching in one of the hardest divisions in baseball for offensive production? Like I said I don't really proclaim he's Cy young but uhhh.. he came in second in the voting last year and he's given up 3 home runs ALL year, he's had one pretty bad outing, argueably 2 this year and his batting avg against is pretty nice. I don't get where this "luck" is coming from. He's a groundball pitcher and doesn't K a lot of guys, you are basing this off of strikeouts? Doesn't ERA mean anything anymore? Your main point here is luck and strikeouts? Then I could easily say John Maine's career is luck. If you are saying he's gonna get worse or he'll never repeat this production again then sure I won't argue, it could happen. I'm not here to make biased predictions. I agree that he's not dominant or gonna be a lock for solid/great career... but how can I base anything off of luck? Wang finds a lot of bats, that tends to catch up with you sooner than later. 4.16 SO/9 isn't a good total at all, and nothing bad comes from a strike out. Wang's BABIP in 06 = .291, this year, it's risen to .299. The odd stat is he is leaving 70.2% LOB. And last year, he was leaving 72.2% LOB. Meaning, he's lucky. 233 H in 218 IP in 2006 should have given that away. And please don't bring up the "Cy Young" voting again. It's about as meaningful as a Gold Glove. He won 19 games, and is a product of the NY media, that's why he was even considered at all. Wang has good control, that's his savior at this point. By the way... John Maine's BABIP this year - .270. (last year .228) 7.99 SO/9. His rising fastball hasn't left the yard as much this year. 59 H in 74.1 IP (1.25 WHIP), 06' = (1.13 WHIP) and he pitches out of trouble. (82.7% LOB this year). Maine's major problem is his command at this point. He's having his good days and his bad days, but he misses up often, something he's been working on. Once he handles that, his WHIP lowers. Wang's AVG against - .274 - Maine's - .220. Honestly, even comparing these 2 at this point is basically comparing apples to trucks. Wang is a VERY lucky pitcher. I'm not saying John Maine is the best pitcher in baseball, but since coming to the Mets, he's been VERY good. (you brought him up by the way)
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Post by michaelrichards on Jun 10, 2007 9:42:36 GMT -5
i actually wished that game went on longer last night, i was quite bored after the game ended.
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