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Post by MKSavage on Aug 9, 2021 8:16:36 GMT -5
Ugh, I genuinely hated Konnan. "Yo yo yo let me speak on dis! Orale! Arriba la Raza!” Blah…and whenever me and my brothers would wrestle, all the other submission moves actually hurt and the tequila sunrise didn’t hurt for ****. Lol. You see people on TV using then crippler cross face and that was the murderers finisher, you don’t see anybody using the damn Tequila Sunrise. Yeah and when you compare it to other submission finishers, it just was like "meh". No impact whatsoever. Liontamer, Crippler Crossface, Scorpion Deathlock - all looked badass. Not so much the Texas Cloverleaf, it's more of a lower card finisher. But the Tequila Sunrise I feel should have not been a match ender unless he was facing a lower card opponent. I know this is deviating from the original Sting's misuse topic - so I'll bring it back - Scorpion Deathlock vs the Sharpshooter. They could have built this as a big feud but they squandered any potential against Bret and they had one match together and a tag match and that was it? What a waste. These two were misused horribly by WCW in 1998/99. Such a shame.
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Ohtimate Wahriah
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Post by Ohtimate Wahriah on Aug 9, 2021 8:37:16 GMT -5
Ugh, I genuinely hated Konnan. "Yo yo yo let me speak on dis! Orale! Arriba la Raza!” Blah…and whenever me and my brothers would wrestle, all the other submission moves actually hurt and the tequila sunrise didn’t hurt for ****. Lol. You see people on TV using then crippler cross face and that was the murderers finisher, you don’t see anybody using the damn Tequila Sunrise. Yeah and when you compare it to other submission finishers, it just was like "meh". No impact whatsoever. Liontamer, Crippler Crossface, Scorpion Deathlock - all looked badass. Not so much the Texas Cloverleaf, it's more of a lower card finisher. But the Tequila Sunrise I feel should have not been a match ender unless he was facing a lower card opponent. I know this is deviating from the original Sting's misuse topic - so I'll bring it back - Scorpion Deathlock vs the Sharpshooter. They could have built this as a big feud but they squandered any potential against Bret and they had one match together and a tag match and that was it? What a waste. The Tequila Sunrise also looked like all you had to do was roll over and you could get out of it, he was holding both limbs on one side of your body, all an opponent had to do was roll and there is no pressure being applied. I know it’s wrestling but still, all the other submission moves actually DO hurt haha. Anyway…Back to Sting. Yea, the Hart vs Sting match at Halloween Havoc is actually really good too, but Sting went to rehab immediately after and that feud never continued. It definitely should have & maybe would have? WCW didn’t really have many extended feuds which was a good thing sometimes as the programming stayed fresh Bret was mishandled from day 1, Sting was a bit of a different situation because he was out of control on drugs at that time, in 98, and management probably didn’t trust him. Coming off their already disenchantment for him over Starrcade ‘97, he was probably pretty unreliable in their minds during this time period. Bret had the same issues in WCW that he had during the early days of his WWF career…why push a Bret Hart when you have Hogan, Savage, Warrior, Goldberg etc? When he went to WCW he fell into the same hierarchy he was in during the early 90s. WCWs roster WAS the early 90s! He basically went back in time and was the small guy all over again. Bret should have never left the WWF, period. I’m a big Bret Hart fan but he choose money over his legacy, and there was a big price to pay for that. A classic example of he wanted to have his cake and eat it too. WCW wasn’t exactly candid about who they thought would draw them money, they more or less wanted to take Bret off the WWF show more than they wanted a Bret Hart on their show.
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Post by MKSavage on Aug 9, 2021 13:45:41 GMT -5
Yeah and when you compare it to other submission finishers, it just was like "meh". No impact whatsoever. Liontamer, Crippler Crossface, Scorpion Deathlock - all looked badass. Not so much the Texas Cloverleaf, it's more of a lower card finisher. But the Tequila Sunrise I feel should have not been a match ender unless he was facing a lower card opponent. I know this is deviating from the original Sting's misuse topic - so I'll bring it back - Scorpion Deathlock vs the Sharpshooter. They could have built this as a big feud but they squandered any potential against Bret and they had one match together and a tag match and that was it? What a waste. The Tequila Sunrise also looked like all you had to do was roll over and you could get out of it, he was holding both limbs on one side of your body, all an opponent had to do was roll and there is no pressure being applied. I know it’s wrestling but still, all the other submission moves actually DO hurt haha. Anyway…Back to Sting. Yea, the Hart vs Sting match at Halloween Havoc is actually really good too, but Sting went to rehab immediately after and that feud never continued. It definitely should have & maybe would have? WCW didn’t really have many extended feuds which was a good thing sometimes as the programming stayed fresh Bret was mishandled from day 1, Sting was a bit of a different situation because he was out of control on drugs at that time, in 98, and management probably didn’t trust him. Coming off their already disenchantment for him over Starrcade ‘97, he was probably pretty unreliable in their minds during this time period. Bret had the same issues in WCW that he had during the early days of his WWF career…why push a Bret Hart when you have Hogan, Savage, Warrior, Goldberg etc? When he went to WCW he fell into the same hierarchy he was in during the early 90s. WCWs roster WAS the early 90s! He basically went back in time and was the small guy all over again. Bret should have never left the WWF, period. I’m a big Bret Hart fan but he choose money over his legacy, and there was a big price to pay for that.
A classic example of he wanted to have his cake and eat it too. WCW wasn’t exactly candid about who they thought would draw them money, they more or less wanted to take Bret off the WWF show more than they wanted a Bret Hart on their show. Not exactly, Vince reneged on the original offer so Bret had to go to WCW. I believe it was said that Vince did come back to him near the end and said that they might be able to make it work, but by that time Bret had already agreed to the deal with WCW and didn't want to spurn them a second time. But it definitely would have been a lot better for Bret had he stayed with the WWF to finish out his career. Shame that didn't happen.
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Ohtimate Wahriah
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Post by Ohtimate Wahriah on Aug 9, 2021 16:31:12 GMT -5
The Tequila Sunrise also looked like all you had to do was roll over and you could get out of it, he was holding both limbs on one side of your body, all an opponent had to do was roll and there is no pressure being applied. I know it’s wrestling but still, all the other submission moves actually DO hurt haha. Anyway…Back to Sting. Yea, the Hart vs Sting match at Halloween Havoc is actually really good too, but Sting went to rehab immediately after and that feud never continued. It definitely should have & maybe would have? WCW didn’t really have many extended feuds which was a good thing sometimes as the programming stayed fresh Bret was mishandled from day 1, Sting was a bit of a different situation because he was out of control on drugs at that time, in 98, and management probably didn’t trust him. Coming off their already disenchantment for him over Starrcade ‘97, he was probably pretty unreliable in their minds during this time period. Bret had the same issues in WCW that he had during the early days of his WWF career…why push a Bret Hart when you have Hogan, Savage, Warrior, Goldberg etc? When he went to WCW he fell into the same hierarchy he was in during the early 90s. WCWs roster WAS the early 90s! He basically went back in time and was the small guy all over again. Bret should have never left the WWF, period. I’m a big Bret Hart fan but he choose money over his legacy, and there was a big price to pay for that.
A classic example of he wanted to have his cake and eat it too. WCW wasn’t exactly candid about who they thought would draw them money, they more or less wanted to take Bret off the WWF show more than they wanted a Bret Hart on their show. Not exactly, Vince reneged on the original offer so Bret had to go to WCW. I believe it was said that Vince did come back to him near the end and said that they might be able to make it work, but by that time Bret had already agreed to the deal with WCW and didn't want to spurn them a second time. But it definitely would have been a lot better for Bret had he stayed with the WWF to finish out his career. Shame that didn't happen. Ehhhhhh, this is a complicated issue. Everyone is to blame. Bret started playing games by taking the year off after Mania 12, he knew and worse I think everybody else knew he was hoping he could sabotage Shawn by doing that, and he has even admitted to that in his book. I think he lost a lot of faith from the management and even guys like Taker who have admitted to losing a bit of patience with Bret towards the end. He was hurting the company intentionally and I don’t think a lot of guys appreciated that. He lost a lot of backing here. Shawn was an ass, but they knew where he stood. Bret was promised a 20 year contract for rumored 1 million a year (and that’s been proven to be more than it actually was but even so). But before that happened, he basically strong armed McMahon into offering that by going to speak with WCW first. Vince made a drastic offer to keep what he thought was his biggest star in 1996…but obviously learned he could do without Bret by 1997. Should he have rescinded the offer…no, but I feel the whole deal was disingenuous on both sides. If Bret truly wanted to stay, then make it happen. Bret really wanted validation as he felt WWF was favoring Shawn, and wanted them to prove otherwise…which they didn’t. Because they DID favor Shawn. Bret became very selfish at a time when WWF really needed a team player. This wasn’t the time to have the company go broke over affirmation. So I think it really did become a case of everybody just saying F Bret, we don’t know where he stands but it’s not 100% with us. He didn’t HAVE to go to WCW, only if money was his priority. He always says he didn’t want to go, but he did…for money! That’s why I said he traded in his legacy for a paycheck, because he did. Even after Vince rescinded the offer, the outrageous offer was only made because Bret forced Vince to compete with WCWs offer and Vince really couldn’t. The screw job and all that came afterwards, I love Bret Hart…and I don’t think he was entirely wrong for chasing the money at that stage in his career. But I can see he was being very selfish, and very difficult at a time when WWF couldn’t afford that, and had other stars they valued more. Where Bret goes wrong is by acting like the WWF chased him out of the federation. He forced them to meet a demand they couldn’t meet and then said but I don’t wanna go. Take less money and stay! Tom Brady has done that everywhere he’s gone. And I feel like Vince only convinced Bret to leave to get out of paying him haha. Vince just didn’t value Bret at that price tag at that point and he was becoming difficult to deal with. But I don’t know, that’s how I interpret the whole thing.
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Post by cordless2016 on Aug 10, 2021 7:25:57 GMT -5
I wouldn’t say Bret “chose the money” over his legacy. Anyone in his position would take the contract he was offered, especially after staying loyal to your longtime employer, only for them to break your new contract less than a year into it.
I’ve never believed the story that “Vince couldn’t pay Bret.” Heck, he paid Tyson millions just a few months later. I think it always came down to a combo of Vince feeling he overpaid Bret to prevent him from going to WCW, and Vince feeling Bret “got one over” on him.
As far as Bret taking a hiatus following WM12, I can’t really blame the guy. After 10+ years of broken promises from management and a ton of stop-and-go pushes, I think he was legit burnt out to a point and needed a break. In his book he also wanted to try his hand at acting. And yeah, he wanted to step away with Shawn on top (as admitted to a point in his book), but it’s not like Vince was likely to run another Bret/Shawn program while both were faces. I don’t think Bret being there while the nWo was starting would have changed anything. And negotiating with WCW at that time, again, anyone smart business man would weigh all their options before making a major financial decision.
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Ohtimate Wahriah
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Post by Ohtimate Wahriah on Aug 10, 2021 8:28:04 GMT -5
I wouldn’t say Bret “chose the money” over his legacy. Anyone in his position would take the contract he was offered, especially after staying loyal to your longtime employer, only for them to break your new contract less than a year into it. I’ve never believed the story that “Vince couldn’t pay Bret.” Heck, he paid Tyson millions just a few months later. I think it always came down to a combo of Vince feeling he overpaid Bret to prevent him from going to WCW, and Vince feeling Bret “got one over” on him. As far as Bret taking a hiatus following WM12, I can’t really blame the guy. After 10+ years of broken promises from management and a ton of stop-and-go pushes, I think he was legit burnt out to a point and needed a break. In his book he also wanted to try his hand at acting. And yeah, he wanted to step away with Shawn on top (as admitted to a point in his book), but it’s not like Vince was likely to run another Bret/Shawn program while both were faces. I don’t think Bret being there while the nWo was starting would have changed anything. And negotiating with WCW at that time, again, anyone smart business man would weigh all their options before making a major financial decision. All I’m saying is, he had an opportunity to finish out his career in the WWF, which would have cemented his legacy and his history as the WWF superstar he was, or he could take the big money WCW was offering, and jeopardize all that, which IMO, he eventually got back a bit of his legacy by patching things up with WWE, but they also rewrote it. Bret is now the guy who got screwed on his way out the door. His legacy as one of the best wrestlers of all time & as a WWF hero has taken a back seat to now being the guy that left for WCW, got screwed on the way out, and is a massive crybaby. He definitely muddied the waters at the VERY least as to how fans will remember him. Also, I’m not saying anybody can blame Bret for taking a huge contract from WCW, but that is not something he HAD to do. Taker didn't take the money, HBK didn’t. I’m certain those guys were made big offers, they’ve both stated that. There’s a big difference between saying, I don’t blame him for taking the money & he didn’t trade in his legacy for money. He absolutely did. Just look at how the narrative on him has changed. New fans only think of Bret for Montreal & being bitter…that’s how WWE depicts Bret, so his legacy was altered. In 1997 Vince could have paid Bret, in 1996 he made an offer he couldn’t fulfill. The problem was, the WWF had changed drastically in 1 year and the worst thing Bret could have done after WM12, was take that time off. Vince THOUGHT the WWF couldn't survive without Bret Hart & by the time Survivor Series 97 rolled around and Bret returned, Vince KNEW he COULD survive without Bret. In fact, they changed course entirely & we’re prospering without him. Bret became the guy that was out of place and exactly why Vince would rather pay somebody like Tyson instead of Bret. He tried to raise his value by leaving and instead he forced change that didn’t include him. He lessened his value to the WWF. I understand any smart business man would negotiate, but at that time, the WWF couldn’t afford that. They needed guys that were loyal on the front lines shooting back. What Bret was doing was threatening to join the Germans in WW2, during the battle of Normandy. He was looked at differently for that. From a Bret Hart perspective, he did what was best for Bret. From a WWF perspective, he did what WASNT best for WWF. So while you and I say we don’t blame him, Vince, the guy he left hanging, certainly could. And there’s a big reason Bret isn’t remembered or celebrated within WWE as honorably as Taker or Michaels are. Just watch WrestleMania 26, HBK, Taker & Bret wrestle on the same card. HBKs moment should have been Brets. I’m enjoying this conversation, don’t get me wrong. I love hearing your perspective and sharing mine, hopefully nobody gets mad we are off topic a bit here haha.
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Post by MKSavage on Aug 10, 2021 10:09:09 GMT -5
I wouldn’t say Bret “chose the money” over his legacy. Anyone in his position would take the contract he was offered, especially after staying loyal to your longtime employer, only for them to break your new contract less than a year into it. I’ve never believed the story that “Vince couldn’t pay Bret.” Heck, he paid Tyson millions just a few months later. I think it always came down to a combo of Vince feeling he overpaid Bret to prevent him from going to WCW, and Vince feeling Bret “got one over” on him. As far as Bret taking a hiatus following WM12, I can’t really blame the guy. After 10+ years of broken promises from management and a ton of stop-and-go pushes, I think he was legit burnt out to a point and needed a break. In his book he also wanted to try his hand at acting. And yeah, he wanted to step away with Shawn on top (as admitted to a point in his book), but it’s not like Vince was likely to run another Bret/Shawn program while both were faces. I don’t think Bret being there while the nWo was starting would have changed anything. And negotiating with WCW at that time, again, anyone smart business man would weigh all their options before making a major financial decision. All I’m saying is, he had an opportunity to finish out his career in the WWF, which would have cemented his legacy and his history as the WWF superstar he was, or he could take the big money WCW was offering, and jeopardize all that, which IMO, he eventually got back a bit of his legacy by patching things up with WWE, but they also rewrote it. Bret is now the guy who got screwed on his way out the door. His legacy as one of the best wrestlers of all time & as a WWF hero has taken a back seat to now being the guy that left for WCW, got screwed on the way out, and is a massive crybaby. He definitely muddied the waters at the VERY least as to how fans will remember him. Also, I’m not saying anybody can blame Bret for taking a huge contract from WCW, but that is not something he HAD to do. Taker didn't take the money, HBK didn’t. I’m certain those guys were made big offers, they’ve both stated that. There’s a big difference between saying, I don’t blame him for taking the money & he didn’t trade in his legacy for money. He absolutely did. Just look at how the narrative on him has changed. New fans only think of Bret for Montreal & being bitter…that’s how WWE depicts Bret, so his legacy was altered. In 1997 Vince could have paid Bret, in 1996 he made an offer he couldn’t fulfill. The problem was, the WWF had changed drastically in 1 year and the worst thing Bret could have done after WM12, was take that time off. Vince THOUGHT the WWF couldn't survive without Bret Hart & by the time Survivor Series 97 rolled around and Bret returned, Vince KNEW he COULD survive without Bret. In fact, they changed course entirely & we’re prospering without him. Bret became the guy that was out of place and exactly why Vince would rather pay somebody like Tyson instead of Bret. He tried to raise his value by leaving and instead he forced change that didn’t include him. He lessened his value to the WWF. I understand any smart business man would negotiate, but at that time, the WWF couldn’t afford that. They needed guys that were loyal on the front lines shooting back. What Bret was doing was threatening to join the Germans in WW2, during the battle of Normandy. He was looked at differently for that. From a Bret Hart perspective, he did what was best for Bret. From a WWF perspective, he did what WASNT best for WWF. So while you and I say we don’t blame him, Vince, the guy he left hanging, certainly could. And there’s a big reason Bret isn’t remembered or celebrated within WWE as honorably as Taker or Michaels are. Just watch WrestleMania 26, HBK, Taker & Bret wrestle on the same card. HBKs moment should have been Bret's. I’m enjoying this conversation, don’t get me wrong. I love hearing your perspective and sharing mine, hopefully nobody gets mad we are off topic a bit here haha. I don't know, I still don't blame Bret for taking WCW's money in 1997, especially after Vince was the one who cancelled the contract. Yes, Bret could have stayed for less money, but that offer did not come to him until after he already agreed with WCW and their offer. And, as Bret said, he didn't want to negotiate with WCW for a contract only to not take it and work for their competitor, for a second time. That could have hurt any relationship down the road for Bret and WCW once WWF was truly done with him and wouldn't offer him another contract. Also, yes Taker and Shawn did not take a bigger contract to go to WCW like Bret did but, Vince never cancelled their contracts which gave them no other option. (As a side note, it has been mentioned or rumored, that after Vince decided to go with Austin over HBK, Shawn wanted out of his contract so he could go to WCW. However, Vince kept him on contract through 2001 or 2002, and paid him his same salary, just so he couldn't go to WCW. Then, once WCW was bought out and no longer available, Vince stopped paying Shawn his salary, because now Shawn had no were else to go, which is why he returned in 2002). And, Bret did take less money to stay with WWF in 1996 instead of jumping ship with the other guys and go to WCW. Though, you are right, Bret's legacy has been hurt by this. I think, more of his legacy has been hurt because of how things went in WCW. I think that has left him a little more bitter than the stuff with the WWF. The sad thing is, if they would have come up with the screwjob as an angle instead of something they thought they had to do, that really could have been a good way to bring Bret back after his contract with WCW was over. They could have "screwed" Bret, then he leaves looking like the spurned champion. Then goes to WCW, does whatever they do there, then comes back to the WWF in 2000 (after his WCW contract ends) and works an angle with Vince - who is now the ultimate heel. Then after that, Bret could work with some of the younger talent that was in the WWF at the time, and have a final run with the company in 2001 or 2002 (which is when Bret was looking to retire after signing the contract in 1996).
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Post by cordless2016 on Aug 10, 2021 11:21:19 GMT -5
All I’m saying is, he had an opportunity to finish out his career in the WWF, which would have cemented his legacy and his history as the WWF superstar he was, or he could take the big money WCW was offering, and jeopardize all that, which IMO, he eventually got back a bit of his legacy by patching things up with WWE, but they also rewrote it. Bret is now the guy who got screwed on his way out the door. His legacy as one of the best wrestlers of all time & as a WWF hero has taken a back seat to now being the guy that left for WCW, got screwed on the way out, and is a massive crybaby. He definitely muddied the waters at the VERY least as to how fans will remember him. Also, I’m not saying anybody can blame Bret for taking a huge contract from WCW, but that is not something he HAD to do. Taker didn't take the money, HBK didn’t. I’m certain those guys were made big offers, they’ve both stated that. There’s a big difference between saying, I don’t blame him for taking the money & he didn’t trade in his legacy for money. He absolutely did. Just look at how the narrative on him has changed. New fans only think of Bret for Montreal & being bitter…that’s how WWE depicts Bret, so his legacy was altered. In 1997 Vince could have paid Bret, in 1996 he made an offer he couldn’t fulfill. The problem was, the WWF had changed drastically in 1 year and the worst thing Bret could have done after WM12, was take that time off. Vince THOUGHT the WWF couldn't survive without Bret Hart & by the time Survivor Series 97 rolled around and Bret returned, Vince KNEW he COULD survive without Bret. In fact, they changed course entirely & we’re prospering without him. Bret became the guy that was out of place and exactly why Vince would rather pay somebody like Tyson instead of Bret. He tried to raise his value by leaving and instead he forced change that didn’t include him. He lessened his value to the WWF. I understand any smart business man would negotiate, but at that time, the WWF couldn’t afford that. They needed guys that were loyal on the front lines shooting back. What Bret was doing was threatening to join the Germans in WW2, during the battle of Normandy. He was looked at differently for that. From a Bret Hart perspective, he did what was best for Bret. From a WWF perspective, he did what WASNT best for WWF. So while you and I say we don’t blame him, Vince, the guy he left hanging, certainly could. And there’s a big reason Bret isn’t remembered or celebrated within WWE as honorably as Taker or Michaels are. Just watch WrestleMania 26, HBK, Taker & Bret wrestle on the same card. HBKs moment should have been Bret's. I’m enjoying this conversation, don’t get me wrong. I love hearing your perspective and sharing mine, hopefully nobody gets mad we are off topic a bit here haha. I don't know, I still don't blame Bret for taking WCW's money in 1997, especially after Vince was the one who cancelled the contract. Yes, Bret could have stayed for less money, but that offer did not come to him until after he already agreed with WCW and their offer. And, as Bret said, he didn't want to negotiate with WCW for a contract only to not take it and work for their competitor, for a second time. That could have hurt any relationship down the road for Bret and WCW once WWF was truly done with him and wouldn't offer him another contract. Also, yes Taker and Shawn did not take a bigger contract to go to WCW like Bret did but, Vince never cancelled their contracts which gave them no other option. (As a side note, it has been mentioned or rumored, that after Vince decided to go with Austin over HBK, Shawn wanted out of his contract so he could go to WCW. However, Vince kept him on contract through 2001 or 2002, and paid him his same salary, just so he couldn't go to WCW. Then, once WCW was bought out and no longer available, Vince stopped paying Shawn his salary, because now Shawn had no were else to go, which is why he returned in 2002). And, Bret did take less money to stay with WWF in 1996 instead of jumping ship with the other guys and go to WCW. Though, you are right, Bret's legacy has been hurt by this. I think, more of his legacy has been hurt because of how things went in WCW. I think that has left him a little more bitter than the stuff with the WWF. The sad thing is, if they would have come up with the screwjob as an angle instead of something they thought they had to do, that really could have been a good way to bring Bret back after his contract with WCW was over. They could have "screwed" Bret, then he leaves looking like the spurned champion. Then goes to WCW, does whatever they do there, then comes back to the WWF in 2000 (after his WCW contract ends) and works an angle with Vince - who is now the ultimate heel. Then after that, Bret could work with some of the younger talent that was in the WWF at the time, and have a final run with the company in 2001 or 2002 (which is when Bret was looking to retire after signing the contract in 1996). This. Taker and Shawn were never in the same position that Bret was in. Vince didn’t break their contracts like he had with Bret. Had he, I’m willing to bet both would have strongly considered WCW as Bret had (with Shawn likely going there as well). As mentioned before I’ve never believed for a second Vince couldn’t pay Bret. Knowing reports of Vince’s ego, he likely felt he overpaid for Bret in 1996, but did what he had to do to prevent him from going to WCW. One year later, while WCW was still “winning the war,” the seeds were planted for the WWF to soon become the king of the wrestling landscape again. Vince likely had buyers remorse, and couldn’t stand the fact that a talent “one-upped” him in negotiations. Now at a point where Austin was quickly rising and HBK was popular with DX, Vince likely felt now was the best time to break that contract. And why not? He could stroke his ego by “getting back” at Bret for the previous years negotiations, and squash the Bret/HBK locker room issues all with one move. Sure, Vince offered Bret a half-a**ed contract at the very last second, but that has always come off as more of a slap in the face to Bret than anything else. Bret was already halfway done signing his WCW contract. Did Bret’s career end on a whimper? Yeah. Even if we don’t take the concussion into account, Vince was 100% right that WCW wouldn’t know how to book Bret. But considering Vince broke their contract, Bret really didn’t have any other choices. He was forced into that corner after he signed the contract Vince offered to him in 1996.
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Ohtimate Wahriah
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Post by Ohtimate Wahriah on Aug 10, 2021 12:27:31 GMT -5
No, I don’t blame him either for taking the money, my point is there was a personal price to pay by taking it haha. He got the money, but he lost something, I feel, that was more important to him. He thought he’d have both but obviously, things didn’t play out as Bret anticipated.
I agree with you 100% that the best finish to the Bret/Shawn match was a worked screw job. In retrospect, it’s amazing that they didn’t think of that because it was the perfect finish. It benefited all parties.
Taker & Shawn didn’t force Vinces hand either though. Bret wanted a WCW-like contract out of Vince. Taker & Shawn never met with WCW and used that leverage against Vince to strong arm him into making a comparable offer. Vince pulled back on the offer, yes, but Vince was also up front with Bret from day 1 that he couldn’t compete with WCWs offer. Even the offer he made wasn’t as good, but it was still the biggest contract WWF had EVER offered at that time. Things started to fall apart after that offer though because Bret started to really go into business for himself and he wasn’t pulling in the same money as guys like Austin or DX. I genuinely feel like Vince made that drastic offer because he felt he needed Bret Hart to battle WCW and Bret had him bent over the table in submission via an ultimatum. Vince soon found out he had bigger and better stars than Bret and he wasn’t worth that offer, especially as he had become difficult to deal with.
I mean, I’m asking you point blank, did you value Bret at $1million a year for 20 years in 1997? It would be nice for Vince to be in a position to honor his word regardless of the financial hardship he may face as a result…but that wasn’t the situation the WWF was in in 1997. Vinces investments were critical at that point in turning the tables. Had he paid Bret that money, we may be watching WCW right now. WWF turned the corner on WCW the night Bret left…think about that.
I mentioned this in the above reply but to reply directly, I don’t feel like Taker & HBK ever put Vince in the same situation. They never demanded an insanely large contract to stay with the company. Bret can say all he wants that he didn’t wanna go to WCW…he was willing to and that’s all Vince had to hear. Willingness and Wantingness are seperate things, you can still do something you don’t want to. You can’t do something you’re unwilling to. Certainly you can see how Bret put Vince in a position he regretted immediately? I mean, it’s the definition of a rash decision that 20 year offer was. Vince was also on the cusp of opening Pandora’s box because in an effort to keep 1 Bret Hart, how long do you think it would have been before HBK asked for a similar contract or he walks? Or Taker asking next? Or Austin? Vince would have either gone broke or lost a hell of a lot of stars. They didn’t have that kind of money in 1997.
I also truly feel like Vince did have a sense of humanity to his negotiations with Bret, and in many ways I think Bret was the last to have that personal relationship with McMahon. I do feel like Vince wanted to pay Bret, personally as a friend and a boss. WWF wasn't as big then as it is now, it was still a family promotion. So I do think the relationships were more personal, and Vince was hurt by Bret deserting him for more money. It’s a complicated thing, we can discuss the psychology of this every day haha, it goes back further and further the more you think about it. The issue didn’t originate at the negotiating table and the contract Vince offered, the issue came from Vince having to even OFFER that contract to persuade Bret, who was a loyal WWF guy, to stay loyal.
And I believe the sentiment became, if Bret wants to go be a traitor, then screw him. He’s not with us anymore. And as guys like Austin, and The Rock, and DX got more and more over, Vince realized it’s easier& easier to let Bret go, and invest that money elsewhere.
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Post by MKSavage on Aug 10, 2021 15:51:40 GMT -5
No, I don’t blame him either for taking the money, my point is there was a personal price to pay by taking it haha. He got the money, but he lost something, I feel, that was more important to him. He thought he’d have both but obviously, things didn’t play out as Bret anticipated. I agree with you 100% that the best finish to the Bret/Shawn match was a worked screw job. In retrospect, it’s amazing that they didn’t think of that because it was the perfect finish. It benefited all parties. Taker & Shawn didn’t force Vinces hand either though. Bret wanted a WCW-like contract out of Vince. Taker & Shawn never met with WCW and used that leverage against Vince to strong arm him into making a comparable offer. Vince pulled back on the offer, yes, but Vince was also up front with Bret from day 1 that he couldn’t compete with WCWs offer. Even the offer he made wasn’t as good, but it was still the biggest contract WWF had EVER offered at that time. Things started to fall apart after that offer though because Bret started to really go into business for himself and he wasn’t pulling in the same money as guys like Austin or DX. I genuinely feel like Vince made that drastic offer because he felt he needed Bret Hart to battle WCW and Bret had him bent over the table in submission via an ultimatum. Vince soon found out he had bigger and better stars than Bret and he wasn’t worth that offer, especially as he had become difficult to deal with. I mean, I’m asking you point blank, did you value Bret at $1million a year for 20 years in 1997? It would be nice for Vince to be in a position to honor his word regardless of the financial hardship he may face as a result…but that wasn’t the situation the WWF was in in 1997. Vinces investments were critical at that point in turning the tables. Had he paid Bret that money, we may be watching WCW right now. WWF turned the corner on WCW the night Bret left…think about that. Bret's deal wasn't for 1 million a year for 20 years ($20 million total), it devalued over time. I believe the deal was for 1-1.5 million a year for the first 3 years (while he was still a full-time wrestler), then when he became a part-time wrestler/backstage agent it would go down considerably. Then for the rest of the years left on the contract, when he was a full-time backstage employee/agent and not wrestling at all, he would be getting what all the other agents were getting at the time. I believe Vince offered Bret the total amount (8-9 million) that WCW offered but over 20 years instead of 3. Also, I don't think Bret's deal was the highest in WWF history at that time. At least not in yearly salary. Hogan was making way more than that per year back in the 80s (granted, WWF's finances were much better at the time). And to cordless2016's point, he couldn't pay Bret 1-1.5 million a year for 3 years but he could find the money to pay Mike Tyson 3-3.5 million for a few appearances over a 3 month period, seems odd. Also, WWF didn't turn the corner on WCW the day after Bret left, WCW still won the ratings battles and PPV battles until after WM14. Raw officially beat Nitro in the ratings for the 1st time in 2 years sometime in mid April of 1998, and from April 1998 to October 1998 Raw and Nitro traded wins from time to time. WWF didn't take over the ratings war for good until late 1998. But I do agree with you on Vince seeing Austin and others as bigger stars. I have always believed that he wanted to get out of the contract with Bret to free up more money for guys like Austin, HBK, HHH, the Rock, Taker, all guys who were younger than Bret and who Vince probably felt could help the company more going forward for more years. And, there was something brought up years ago that probably also had a play in Vince wanting out of the contract. Vince was looking to go public years before he did, probably to help him get more money to combat WCW. But, when you are looking to go public, it is not always best to have long contracts (or debts) outstanding at the very beginning/at the time you go public. I always wondered if he thought Bret's 20 year contract would have been a hindrance on him going public. Most other guys in the company usually only had a 1-1.5 year contract.
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Ohtimate Wahriah
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Post by Ohtimate Wahriah on Aug 10, 2021 16:36:59 GMT -5
No, I don’t blame him either for taking the money, my point is there was a personal price to pay by taking it haha. He got the money, but he lost something, I feel, that was more important to him. He thought he’d have both but obviously, things didn’t play out as Bret anticipated. I agree with you 100% that the best finish to the Bret/Shawn match was a worked screw job. In retrospect, it’s amazing that they didn’t think of that because it was the perfect finish. It benefited all parties. Taker & Shawn didn’t force Vinces hand either though. Bret wanted a WCW-like contract out of Vince. Taker & Shawn never met with WCW and used that leverage against Vince to strong arm him into making a comparable offer. Vince pulled back on the offer, yes, but Vince was also up front with Bret from day 1 that he couldn’t compete with WCWs offer. Even the offer he made wasn’t as good, but it was still the biggest contract WWF had EVER offered at that time. Things started to fall apart after that offer though because Bret started to really go into business for himself and he wasn’t pulling in the same money as guys like Austin or DX. I genuinely feel like Vince made that drastic offer because he felt he needed Bret Hart to battle WCW and Bret had him bent over the table in submission via an ultimatum. Vince soon found out he had bigger and better stars than Bret and he wasn’t worth that offer, especially as he had become difficult to deal with. I mean, I’m asking you point blank, did you value Bret at $1million a year for 20 years in 1997? It would be nice for Vince to be in a position to honor his word regardless of the financial hardship he may face as a result…but that wasn’t the situation the WWF was in in 1997. Vinces investments were critical at that point in turning the tables. Had he paid Bret that money, we may be watching WCW right now. WWF turned the corner on WCW the night Bret left…think about that. Bret's deal wasn't for 1 million a year for 20 years ($20 million total), it devalued over time. I believe the deal was for 1-1.5 million a year for the first 3 years (while he was still a full-time wrestler), then when he became a part-time wrestler/backstage agent it would go down considerably. Then for the rest of the years left on the contract, when he was a full-time backstage employee/agent and not wrestling at all, he would be getting what all the other agents were getting at the time. I believe Vince offered Bret the total amount (8-9 million) that WCW offered but over 20 years instead of 3. Also, I don't think Bret's deal was the highest in WWF history at that time. At least not in yearly salary. Hogan was making way more than that per year back in the 80s (granted, WWF's finances were much better at the time). And to cordless2016's point, he couldn't pay Bret 1-1.5 million a year for 3 years but he could find the money to pay Mike Tyson 3-3.5 million for a few appearances over a 3 month period, seems odd. Also, WWF didn't turn the corner on WCW the day after Bret left, WCW still won the ratings battles and PPV battles until after WM14. Raw officially beat Nitro in the ratings for the 1st time in 2 years sometime in mid April of 1998, and from April 1998 to October 1998 Raw and Nitro traded wins from time to time. WWF didn't take over the ratings war for good until late 1998. But I do agree with you on Vince seeing Austin and others as bigger stars. I have always believed that he wanted to get out of the contract with Bret to free up more money for guys like Austin, HBK, HHH, the Rock, Taker, all guys who were younger than Bret and who Vince probably felt could help the company more going forward for more years. And, there was something brought up years ago that probably also had a play in Vince wanting out of the contract. Vince was looking to go public years before he did, probably to help him get more money to combat WCW. But, when you are looking to go public, it is not always best to have long contracts (or debts) outstanding at the very beginning/at the time you go public. I always wondered if he thought Bret's 20 year contract would have been a hindrance on him going public. Most other guys in the company usually only had a 1-1.5 year contract. When I say turned the corner I’m being figurative. I definitely believe the Screw Job set them on the path to beating WCW, it started there. I know it would be a bit before they OFFICIALLY started to best WCW, but I truly believe all the wheels were put in motion the Monday after Survivor Series. WWF was in possession of the formula to best WCW at that point, it was just a matter of fans tuning in. The 20 year contract HAD to be the biggest in company history up to that point, Vince hadn’t signed anybody for that long ever, plus wasn’t it a guaranteed contract? I think Mero or Pillman had the first in WWF but Vince definitely wasn’t doing guaranteed contracts for Hogan either. The true joke is by the time his contract ran out, he would have probably been severely underpaid haha. It would have been a great deal for Vince in the long run. Oh yea, for sure and that’s the thing. You never know what was going on in 1997, I’m sure Vince didn’t wake up in the 2000’s and just go public that morning haha, I’m sure it was something he had in motion, probably around that time. You’re right, that may have been in consideration when reflecting on the Bret deal. I still think the deal Tyson got in 1998 was different than what Bret was offered in 1996. WWF was getting hot again and we’re pulling in more money and also probably thought it was a better investment. I have no doubt in my mind Vince could afford the original 20 year deal he offered Bret, he COULD have paid it. I think he didn’t WANT to and he was also not AS comfortable in doing so since his bank account wasnt as big as it would be in 98 with Austin pulling in $$$. He wanted to pay Tyson. But even so, WWF’s wallet in 1998 was bigger than it was in 1996 I’m certain. In ‘96, I feel like if Vince paid Bret that contract, he would have left the company in rough shape going forward where as in ‘98 Vince was much more equipped to put out that kind of money.
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Post by cordless2016 on Aug 10, 2021 17:03:44 GMT -5
I think the interesting part of all this is when Vince decided Bret wasn’t apart of his future plans. We’ve all heard the stories of Vince’s ego, so did Vince sign the deal in 1996 knowing he’d being breaching it at some point, or was it later on in 1997 when he first thought of the idea?
Vince probably hated the idea of anyone “getting one over on him,” and in late 1996 he was likely desperate to keep Bret away from WCW. In his mind I could see Vince just throwing anything out there, even if he wasn’t a fan of the deal. I honestly wouldn’t be shocked if Vince made that deal already knowing he’d breach it at some point in the future (maybe not 1 year out, but at some point). As mentioned, Vince had been thinking of going public years before he did, and the Bret/HBK heat was pretty heated by the point (and would only get worse over the next year).
Regardless of when he made the decision, nobody can blame Bret for trying to get the best deal for himself and his family. Any smart employee/contractor would do the same thing, and even if Bret didn’t want to leave the WWF, he’d have been crazy to not do everything he could to get the best deal for himself. Employers will always out there business before anything else (as Bret would learn a year later), and employees/contractors should always put themselves first as well.
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Ohtimate Wahriah
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Post by Ohtimate Wahriah on Aug 10, 2021 18:04:30 GMT -5
I think the interesting part of all this is when Vince decided Bret wasn’t apart of his future plans. We’ve all heard the stories of Vince’s ego, so did Vince sign the deal in 1996 knowing he’d being breaching it at some point, or was it later on in 1997 when he first thought of the idea? Vince probably hated the idea of anyone “getting one over on him,” and in late 1996 he was likely desperate to keep Bret away from WCW. In his mind I could see Vince just throwing anything out there, even if he wasn’t a fan of the deal. I honestly wouldn’t be shocked if Vince made that deal already knowing he’d breach it at some point in the future (maybe not 1 year out, but at some point). As mentioned, Vince had been thinking of going public years before he did, and the Bret/HBK heat was pretty heated by the point (and would only get worse over the next year). Regardless of when he made the decision, nobody can blame Bret for trying to get the best deal for himself and his family. Any smart employee/contractor would do the same thing, and even if Bret didn’t want to leave the WWF, he’d have been crazy to not do everything he could to get the best deal for himself. Employers will always out there business before anything else (as Bret would learn a year later), and employees/contractors should always put themselves first as well. I find that aspect interesting as well, when Vince decided Bret was out. I know when Bret was away after WM12, Vince contacted him to do some house show appearances since the shows were hurting and Bret declined. Pritchard has said on his podcast that Vince took offense to that and felt like Bret was being selfish. It would make sense that the loss of faith in Hart started here and was exacerbated when Austin single handedly became the biggest star in the companies history. Austin made it easy for Vince to reconsider paying Bret. Bret was no longer the star, Austin was. Bret also didn’t fit into the plans of an attitude era like Austin, Michaels or a lot of other guys did. WM12 was the beginning of the end for Bret, even when he came back to face Austin at Survivor Series, the commentary was constantly criticizing Harts in ring shape even though he was as good as ever. They were really trying to make him look bad for no reason and he was the babyface. When a guy returns, when have the WWF ever planted doubt as to their in ring ability? Hogan will come back tonight and Michael Cole will tell us he’s “better than ever”. So that was odd. I don’t think he KNEW he’d breach it, maybe he left himself the option to do so for sure if you know what I mean. Vince is smart, I’m sure he had his bases covered but I just think in a year things changed. As fans we can see how things changed. In 1996, I would say, Bret and Shawn were 1 & 2 in the WWF, Vince just lost Razor & Diesel, losing Bret would have been REALLY bad! I think there is also a stubbornness to Vince that might have made him determined not to lose another top name to Turner, if for anything else, for spite haha. But 1997 rolled around and I’d say Austin was clearly #1, Michaels was #2 following Mania 12, and I’d say Bret was arguably #3, possibly #5 behind Sid & Taker depending on how you see it. He lost a lot of value when he left and I truly believe Vince just recognized that he didn’t need to rely so heavily on Bret anymore. It’s probably a combination of all these things though. But no, I don’t blame him then and I don’t blame him now for making money. In 2021, I fully agree, look out for #1 and #1 alone when it comes to business. Back in 1996, I can see people have a little bit more of a naive mindset because people weren’t SO money hungry back then. Businesses did look out for employees and people did have a sense of loyalty. That’s gone TOTALLY down the drain now but there was a time people could go to work with pride haha.
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Post by Rock-Is-King on Sept 3, 2021 21:22:20 GMT -5
I found Sting in 1997 to be painful. I know a lot of people loved the angle, but he didn't wrestle at all. It was just a tease, for an entire year, longer even. Then we got the crap finish from Starcade. I don't mind a slow build, but it was literally a year between matches for Sting. I dont think he was hurt either. So WCW just decided to put one of their biggest babyface draws on the burner for an entire year. I just didn't like it. But it’s as Sting himself said…..he could’ve came out every week, ranted & raved that he was gonna get Hall, Nash & the Nwo guys but that was the typical approach that had been done many times before in every angle/story line…..sometimes less is more, in this case it was exactly that & it drew money big time …..personally I loved the entire angle with the exception of Starrcade where what exactly happened in the finish is still hotly debated to this very day
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Post by JokerFC on Sept 5, 2021 17:50:39 GMT -5
I created this thread 9 years ago... & its still ticking over 😂😂😂
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Post by PJ on Sept 6, 2021 9:52:44 GMT -5
I created this thread 9 years ago... & its still ticking over 😂😂😂 And as long as I am here it’ll stay pinned to the first page.
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Post by The Brain on Sept 6, 2021 10:16:19 GMT -5
I created this thread 9 years ago... & its still ticking over 😂😂😂 And as long as I am here it’ll say pinned to the first page. Have you thought about your future successor?
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Post by JokerFC on Sept 6, 2021 13:51:20 GMT -5
And as long as I am here it’ll say pinned to the first page. Have you thought about your future successor? 😂😂😂. I think I was mod when I did this
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TheXtremisT
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This is the way
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Post by TheXtremisT on Sept 7, 2021 4:26:13 GMT -5
I created this thread 9 years ago... & its still ticking over 😂😂😂 Over 23 years of hurt, just can't be summed up in a 16+ page thread 😂
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Post by JokerFC on Sept 7, 2021 15:32:42 GMT -5
I created this thread 9 years ago... & its still ticking over 😂😂😂 Over 23 years of hurt, just can't be summed up in a 16+ page thread 😂 True story 😂😂😂😂
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