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Post by jammer311 on Nov 3, 2011 14:44:29 GMT -5
when you think about it 90% of nashs good stuff came as a heel. post Champ Diesel,Outsiders etc. I think that is Vince's fault though. I remember the 1994 Royal Rumble, Diesel got a huge ovation for eliminating like 5 people in a row. And I have a coliseum video where there is this battle royal he is in and the fans were going nuts for him, and actually booed when he got eliminated, and he was IC Champion at the time I believe. I think where the Diesel character is concerned, the fans were taking to him, they liked that he kicked ass as a heel. Then when Vince saw the fans cheering for him, he made him a face, but tried to make Diesel that sort of face that we would see in the 80s. The 'cartoon' era of the WWE. So when he lost the belt, I remember he cut that sweet 'shoot' promo on Raw about not being the cooperate puppet anymore. And then Diesel got cool again. So I think if Diesel would have just remained Diesel during his face title run, he would have been a dominate champion that fans remember as something good. |
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Raine
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Post by Raine on Nov 3, 2011 15:35:13 GMT -5
Would have loved to have seen Austin/Diesel feud/team if Nash had stuck around in 1996 instead of chasing the big bucks.
Nash could have got another title run out of the heel Diesel character after May 1996, perhaps leaving in 1997. Razor Ramon should have stayed perhaps another year too, as Razor I feel could have been a great heel WWF Champ, instead of stagnating as upper card babyface.
Although Hall/Nash had major success as the nWo, I thought they would flop in WCW back in 1996, like Bret did in 1998.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2011 16:50:31 GMT -5
Agreed with what was stated above.
Since 1994 WWF fans were craving a cool "bad guy" to cheer for.
They didn't get it until 1997 with Stone Cold.
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Post by Nivro™ on Nov 3, 2011 16:57:53 GMT -5
This is a good question. As stated above, even when Ultimate Warrior was WWF Champion he still played second fiddle to Hulk Hogan. However, when Diesel was WWF Champion he really was "the guy". I'd say Diesel was the better champion but both title reigns were total failures. Gotta disagree with you on two points here. 1. Diesel was never the guy, 93-97 was dominated by Bret Hart. Bret was the biggest overall draw WWE had, not to say he was a Hogan type draw but the WWE's biggest at that time. The belt no matter who it went to, always went back to Bret. Diesel's run was played around Bret getting his rematch and when he did, he beat him. Not to mention that the company's marketing machine was still in Bret mode, video packages, vhs tapes, merch, main event matches. Diesel's fued was always second to Bret's with the exception of Mania 11. 2. Warrior suffered from all of the above as well, except monetary wise, HE DREW! Warrior drew money as WWF champion and no numbers slipped. Politics are the only reason Hogan got it back. Id have to say by far Diesel was "the guy" during his title run. Look at the people Bret fought while Diesel was champion...Bob Backlund, Owen Hart, Jean Pierre Lafitte, teaming with 123 Kid and Bob Holly, his "amazing" feud with Lawler and Isaac Yankem....very very BLEH to me. |
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Post by wccwfan4life on Nov 3, 2011 18:27:04 GMT -5
Gotta disagree with you on two points here. 1. Diesel was never the guy, 93-97 was dominated by Bret Hart. Bret was the biggest overall draw WWE had, not to say he was a Hogan type draw but the WWE's biggest at that time. The belt no matter who it went to, always went back to Bret. Diesel's run was played around Bret getting his rematch and when he did, he beat him. Not to mention that the company's marketing machine was still in Bret mode, video packages, vhs tapes, merch, main event matches. Diesel's fued was always second to Bret's with the exception of Mania 11. 2. Warrior suffered from all of the above as well, except monetary wise, HE DREW! Warrior drew money as WWF champion and no numbers slipped. Politics are the only reason Hogan got it back. Id have to say by far Diesel was "the guy" during his title run. Look at the people Bret fought while Diesel was champion...Bob Backlund, Owen Hart, Jean Pierre Lafitte, teaming with 123 Kid and Bob Holly, his "amazing" feud with Lawler and Isaac Yankem....very very BLEH to me. Mediocre feuds sure, but they got more tv time for some reason. Bret got more tv time and exposure than Diesel and thats what Nash has complained about in recent years. Turn the tv on and Bret's face and feuds were all over superstars and Raw. Diesel was in bigger feuds but they didn't have the time and $ put into them. The Bret Lawler feud took up 75 percent of WWF's tv time. |
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Stinger TNA
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Post by Stinger TNA on Nov 3, 2011 19:30:36 GMT -5
Yeah bret and lawler did take up tv time. Even the whole story with brets jacket getting stolen had more tv time whilst diesel worked tag matches as world champ against camp cornette
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2011 11:54:39 GMT -5
Would have loved to have seen Austin/Diesel feud/team if Nash had stuck around in 1996 instead of chasing the big bucks. Nash could have got another title run out of the heel Diesel character after May 1996, perhaps leaving in 1997. Razor Ramon should have stayed perhaps another year too, as Razor I feel could have been a great heel WWF Champ, instead of stagnating as upper card babyface. Although Hall/Nash had major success as the nWo, I thought they would flop in WCW back in 1996, like Bret did in 1998. the reasons both left though was because they were slipping down the card...Nash says in his shoot he was told as much and Hall was Jobbed out to vader at Good Friends:Better Enemies...... they seen the writing on the wall and cleared out while they were still hot.there were other issues like $$ obviously. |
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Raine
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Post by Raine on Nov 4, 2011 13:09:03 GMT -5
Scott Hall was having problems in early 1996, I remember him refusing to work with Goldust at WM12, so they brought in Piper instead. Also he failed a drug test around April 96 and was banned until May, so him leaving in June 1996 was probably a relief to McMahon. Nash I wasn't aware of him being demoted, but could always have possibly reclimbed the card at a later date.
They were given a prime deal by WCW, money and dates wise so did what was best for them.
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Post by jammer311 on Nov 4, 2011 13:52:07 GMT -5
Well, some of that is wrong, but you were on the right track, Raine.
I believe Hall failed the drug test BEFORE Wrestlemania 12. I remember they did hype Razor vs. Goldust in a Hollywood Backlot Brawl, then it became Piper and Goldust.
I think Vince really missed the boat with Razor Ramon. He could have easily been a top draw for the WWE, and maybe Vince should have put the strap on Ramon at MSG against Backlund, instead of Diesel.
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Post by mikey1974 on Nov 4, 2011 14:51:16 GMT -5
Well, some of that is wrong, but you were on the right track, Raine. I believe Hall failed the drug test BEFORE Wrestlemania 12. I remember they did hype Razor vs. Goldust in a Hollywood Backlot Brawl, then it became Piper and Goldust. I think Vince really missed the boat with Razor Ramon. He could have easily been a top draw for the WWE, and maybe Vince should have put the strap on Ramon at MSG against Backlund, instead of Diesel. yes,on all points.... Razor was pulled because of the failed drug test...he was also made to job out to Vader at the next PPV because he had already given his notice to Vince that he was leaving,and did the tradition of putting people over on the way out... |
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Raine
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Post by Raine on Nov 4, 2011 15:23:47 GMT -5
I maybe a little out on dates but he definitely had problems with the Goldust character something about it being "too sexual"
Perhaps if they put the belt on Razor instead of Diesel like Jammer said, it may have kept him on the straight & narrow?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2011 16:36:06 GMT -5
yeah Hall defo didnt want to work with Goldust but was meant to at WM12.and yeah he was suspended.I didnt relaise he had gave his notice by the time of Good Friends:Better Enemies.
I doubt Hall leaving was a relief to McMahon though.
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Post by jammer311 on Nov 4, 2011 16:40:31 GMT -5
Scott Hall didn't really start to have a drinking problem until 1998, or in that area I believe. Then like a good company WCW was, they thought of just making it well known to make money off of it.
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Post by cordless2016 on Nov 5, 2011 9:58:22 GMT -5
I maybe a little out on dates but he definitely had problems with the Goldust character something about it being "too sexual" Perhaps if they put the belt on Razor instead of Diesel like Jammer said, it may have kept him on the straight & narrow? I think in Bret's book he hints that Razor was messed up w/ drugs and booze long before Diesel was given the title. The bottom line is that Scott screwed himself out of the title IMO. He was mega over in 1994, and would have easily been given the strap over Diesel had he been clean. The sad thing is that Scott screwed himself. Vince could never trust him w/ the top spot. W/ Diesel, had he stayed in the WWF, I don't think he would have slipped down the card. Vince put too much time and energy into building him up, and him and Shawn were basically running things behind the scenes for a while. Had he stayed w/ the WWF, I think Diesel would have been the one to have taken the title off of Shawn in 1996 instead of Sid, and it would have set up Taker vs Diesel 2 for the title. |
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Post by skribbel24 on Nov 5, 2011 20:53:17 GMT -5
Everyone loved Warrior because of his wildness and antics... BEFORE he became the champ.
When he held the belt, he was speaking coherent interviews with Regis, dancing with Phil Collins, and professing "Ultimate Love" on the Brother Love show.
I loved Warrior, but when he became champ they tried to change him into becoming a "corporate", when he really just became popular for being a beast. Minus his cage match against Rick Rude, I really can't point a great title defense.
That said, I still liked his reign better than Diesel's. With 1-minute house show matches against Sid and main events with Mabel, his saving grace only belonged to real stars like Bret and Shawn.
By the way, I agree with the statement that the New Generation era was all about Bret. Bret carried the WWF on his shoulders at the time. I watched every show during these days, and it was all about the Hitman.
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Post by Emerald Enthusiast on Nov 6, 2011 1:05:16 GMT -5
Warrior was more over, but Diesel was a far better talent on the mic and in the ring. In fact, I liked Nash as Diesel better than his NWO run.
Actually, Warrior and Diesel have a similarity. Vince was ready to hand over the keys to the kingdom to both of these guys. Had either chosen to stay, the WWF main event scene prior to the Attitude Era would have been very, very different.
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Post by LeighD on Nov 6, 2011 20:55:43 GMT -5
From what I've seen of it, it always seemed like Warrior never got a fair shot at being "The Man" back in 1990. Yeah, Hogan was still around and they wanted to push him, but he could have taken a step back and given Warrior a chance to prove himself. Hogan, for about 90% of Warrior's title reign, was the main focus of the WWF. Diesel, while in a similar spot, got a more fair chance IMO. Bret, still being the top draw, wasn't a Hogan type "Superman" character, so Diesel didn't have to worry about that, and Bret didn't try to overshadow Diesel like Hogan did to Warrior. I thought that the two biggest problems w/ Diesel's reign is that he should have been a heel, and he also had Bret still being the top draw and Shawn's main event push during his title reign. Diesel was always more entertaining as a heel, and having Bret, Taker, and Shawn chase him would have been more entertaining than what we got IMO. Shawn could have turned face before WM11, and then unsuccessfully challenge Diesel for his title, w/ Diesel becoming the first heel to retain his title at WM. Shawn then could have gone onto the same build that he had, and Bret could have taken the title back from Diesel at Survivor Series. I have to agree, well said. Warrior never really had a chance to completely be "the man." Hogan was right there beside him or at the very least just behind him. Warrior's feud with Rude should have transended into a feud with Earthquake. Diesel's reign was an odd one. yes they were pushing him, but they always seemed to have Bret almost on stand by should they decide to drop the belt to him. And they were priming HBK up for the main event scene. I think as a heel, WWF Champion would have been fantastic |
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Post by Emerald Enthusiast on Nov 9, 2011 1:15:53 GMT -5
From what I've seen of it, it always seemed like Warrior never got a fair shot at being "The Man" back in 1990. Yeah, Hogan was still around and they wanted to push him, but he could have taken a step back and given Warrior a chance to prove himself. Hogan, for about 90% of Warrior's title reign, was the main focus of the WWF. Diesel, while in a similar spot, got a more fair chance IMO. Bret, still being the top draw, wasn't a Hogan type "Superman" character, so Diesel didn't have to worry about that, and Bret didn't try to overshadow Diesel like Hogan did to Warrior. I thought that the two biggest problems w/ Diesel's reign is that he should have been a heel, and he also had Bret still being the top draw and Shawn's main event push during his title reign. Diesel was always more entertaining as a heel, and having Bret, Taker, and Shawn chase him would have been more entertaining than what we got IMO. Shawn could have turned face before WM11, and then unsuccessfully challenge Diesel for his title, w/ Diesel becoming the first heel to retain his title at WM. Shawn then could have gone onto the same build that he had, and Bret could have taken the title back from Diesel at Survivor Series. I have to agree, well said. Warrior never really had a chance to completely be "the man." Hogan was right there beside him or at the very least just behind him. Warrior's feud with Rude should have transended into a feud with Earthquake. Diesel's reign was an odd one. yes they were pushing him, but they always seemed to have Bret almost on stand by should they decide to drop the belt to him. And they were priming HBK up for the main event scene. I think as a heel, WWF Champion would have been fantastic Warrior's 1990 title reign was preparation for the post-Hogan WWF. Hulk has stated that he once had plans to retire from wrestling in '91 (financial mismanagement stopped it) and I think Vince was prepping Warrior for several title runs. Likewise, Vince was still looking for his next larger-than-life character in '94. Deep down, I don't think Vince ever really wanted Flair, Hart, or HBK to be the company centerpiece. He wanted another physically imposing guy like Hulk had been. |
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Post by hulkhogancollector on Nov 9, 2011 3:50:12 GMT -5
Diesel's reign was an odd one. yes they were pushing him, but they always seemed to have Bret almost on stand by should they decide to drop the belt to him. And they were priming HBK up for the main event scene. I think as a heel, WWF Champion would have been fantastic[/quote]
Warrior's 1990 title reign was preparation for the post-Hogan WWF. Hulk has stated that he once had plans to retire from wrestling in '91 (financial mismanagement stopped it) and I think Vince was prepping Warrior for several title runs.
Likewise, Vince was still looking for his next larger-than-life character in '94. Deep down, I don't think Vince ever really wanted Flair, Hart, or HBK to be the company centerpiece. He wanted another physically imposing guy like Hulk had been. [/quote]
Thats right HBK, Flair, and Hart really never fit Vince's M O IMHO
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Post by cordless2016 on Nov 9, 2011 11:17:53 GMT -5
I agree that HBK and Bret were probably never the guys Vince wanted to make "The Man."
Bret, while always over, always seemed to drop the title at the most odd times and Vince was always trying to push guys like Luger and Diesel over him. Bret, being the amazing worker and as over as he was, was always Vince's fall back guy. Sadly though, his only memorable WWF title reign IMO was in 1994, but then it was ruined by droping the title Backland when it should have been to Owen. His 1997 title reign was okay, but Vince was already pushing Bret out and the whole montreal thing put a damper on that title reign.
HBK was in the mid-card for so long that its amazing he got to where he did today. Being that he was a "smaller" guy, Vince probably never planned to give him a huge main event push, as evidence by him giving the world title to Diesel over a year before Shawn got it. A combo of Shawn being an amazing worker like Bret and getting over where the reasons he finally got a main event push(backstage politics probably factored into it as well). But back the mid-90s it seemed like Shawn was never gonna get a main event push after spending years on;y fighting for the IC title.
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