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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2014 22:07:20 GMT -5
Bullcrap, Vince didn't care what fans wanted then, he doesn't care what they want now. 'WWE never gives the internet what they want'
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2014 22:10:39 GMT -5
Bullcrap, Vince didn't care what fans wanted then, he doesn't care what they want now. 'WWE never gives the internet what they want' 'Vince didn't care what fans wanted then,' 'Vince didn't care what fans wanted then,' 'Vince didn't care what fans wanted then,'
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2014 22:12:38 GMT -5
'WWE never gives the internet what they want' 'Vince didn't care what fans wanted then,' 'Vince didn't care what fans wanted then,' 'Vince didn't care what fans wanted then,' "Doesn't care what they want now."
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2014 22:14:47 GMT -5
'Vince didn't care what fans wanted then,' 'Vince didn't care what fans wanted then,' 'Vince didn't care what fans wanted then,' "Doesn't care what they want now." But they're already ruining Devitt with his name and stuff! They'll ruin Steen, KENTA, Little Sheamus and Chris Gaines, too!
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Post by rustyy on Sept 29, 2014 22:17:18 GMT -5
And that was in the 80's, it's 2014. The same crap doesn't work anymore, they need change. Hogan was also never booed out out of the building, especially not every week. The crowd popped when Flair eliminated Hogan from the 1992 Rumble. They booed him (though not as much as Cena) the night he lost to Yokozuna. You could see kids in the crowd celebrating when Undertaker beat him at Survivor Series 1991. Don't act like fans weren't sick of Hulk, they were. "The same crap doesn't work anymore"? If they gave Ambrose Cena's push you'd be talking about how it's a brilliant booking decision and you know it. Bullcrap, Vince didn't care what fans wanted then, he doesn't care what they want now. Back during the peak Hogan's run, the fans wanted Hogan and smart fans largely didn't exist. Everyone watched wrestling, nobody bitched about booking or used terms like "bury" not knowing what they meant. People watched the ing matches and enjoyed based on what they wanted to see. Imagine that. If Hogan didn't work and didn't get over, Vince's whole national expansion would have failed. Hulk is pretty much everything you want a top star to be. Charismatic, can cut a great promo, has a good look, can work a good match (I'll post several Hogan matches if you want to try to sell me some bullsh-t that Hogan couldn't work) and knows how to present himself as a STAR. Because Ambrose is fresh and new! He hasn't been the main star for the last 10 years, that's what people don't get. Austin was never booed and he was booked like superman, it worked because he wasn't on top for that long, it doesn't take much for people to get tired of you now a days, if you keep your main event scene fresh and exciting you can book people like superman, have some take a back seat while you create new stars and then rotate them, just like the AE. They have the talent to make this work. There are smart fans now, and they want more than a pretty face and repetitive promos, they want people with actual talent on top. Imagine that. Bullcrap, Vince didn't care what fans wanted then, he doesn't care what they want now. 'WWE never gives the internet what they want' Yeah, totally his first choice and not Orton/Batista at Mania...Oh wait, Batista flopped and Punk left. He listens when the fans force his hand, not if he has a choice, look at Cena for an example of that. And Rock/Austin/Foley are bad examples, WWE had COMPETITION at that point, they had no choice but to make new stars. It was beat Nitro or go out of business.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2014 22:28:50 GMT -5
I actually agree with most of your post. Key word: most. Because Ambrose is fresh and new! He hasn't been the main star for the last 10 years, that's what people don't get. No, what people don't get is that Ambrose being booked like Superman would garner the same reaction from people than any other indie dude in the main event. People on here (and the internet by large) cheer and cheer for these guys to get pushed and then they bitch about how they're booked when they get there. If Ambrose beat everyone on the roster, people would bitch. If Ambrose loses to Rollins, people would bitch. There's no pleasing the internet fans. They could give you Steen vs. Devitt for the WWE Title on RAW next week and this board would find ways to bitch about it. There are smart fans now, and they want more than a pretty face and repetitive promos, they want people with actual talent on top. Imagine that. ...and they have that. They're just too snobby to acknowledge that not everyone has to fit into their cookie cutter idea of what a 'talented pro wrestler' is much like they bitch about Vince's cookie cutter idea of what a 'talented pro wrestler' is. Imagine that. Speaking of repetitive promos, remember that comment the next time you talk about Bray Wyatt being misused. WWE had COMPETITION at that point, they had no choice but to make new stars. It was beat Nitro or go out of business. Fans didn't force his hand on either of them. They were both given the title without fans bitching and whining. Same with him.
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Post by rustyy on Sept 29, 2014 22:38:18 GMT -5
I actually agree with most of your post. Key word: most. Because Ambrose is fresh and new! He hasn't been the main star for the last 10 years, that's what people don't get. No, what people don't get is that Ambrose being booked like Superman would garner the same reaction from people than any other indie dude in the main event. People on here (and the internet by large) cheer and cheer for these guys to get pushed and then they bitch about how they're booked when they get there. If Ambrose beat everyone on the roster, people would bitch. If Ambrose loses to Rollins, people would bitch. There's no pleasing the internet fans. They could give you Steen vs. Devitt for the WWE Title on RAW next week and this board would find ways to bitch about it. There are smart fans now, and they want more than a pretty face and repetitive promos, they want people with actual talent on top. Imagine that. ...and they have that. They're just too snobby to acknowledge that not everyone has to fit into their cookie cutter idea of what a 'talented pro wrestler' is much like they bitch about Vince's cookie cutter idea of what a 'talented pro wrestler' is. Imagine that. Speaking of repetitive promos, remember that comment the next time you talk about Bray Wyatt being misused. People complain, yes. I complain when things I don't like happen. Ambrose getting a superman push and going over everyone to get the WWE title would not be one of them, he's one of about 4 favorites I have in this company and I want him to succeed and I don't care how he does it. I don't need him on top for 10 years, one world title, that's all I want. Cement his legacy as a top act than he can go upper mid card or occasional main event, a Jericho like career if you will. Devitt V Steen I'd complain about if Devitt lost lol. No, they have Randy Orton, Kane, John Cena and Brock Lesnar. No mic skills, (At least no one that wants to use them, and don't tell me any of them have a script, they can freeball it if they want too I'm sure) I just want someone new and fresh that can talk. I don't care if they can wrestle, I don't care if they are fat and ugly, I care if they can talk and keep me interested. Vince just wants a guy with a big body you can find at any Gold's Gym. Bray Wyatt doesn't pick his feuds, he works with what he can, not to mention the limits WWE probably put on his promos. Yes, I've heard he writes his own and gets it approved, but I still think they change it a lot. No way he would willingly spew the same garbage for every feud week in and week out. His vignettes for Harper tonight were quite good. Finally someone actually doesn't bitch and complain at me for my posts too, thank you. EDIT: Benoit got a thank you reign, Eddie got over big, he should have been a multiple time champion, I'll give you that one, Edge said he was always well liked by Vince so he was never in any trouble. Although I believe Edge had WAY to many reigns, it was overkill, especially at the end.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2014 22:43:00 GMT -5
I actually agree with most of your post. Key word: most. No, what people don't get is that Ambrose being booked like Superman would garner the same reaction from people than any other indie dude in the main event. People on here (and the internet by large) cheer and cheer for these guys to get pushed and then they bitch about how they're booked when they get there. If Ambrose beat everyone on the roster, people would bitch. If Ambrose loses to Rollins, people would bitch. There's no pleasing the internet fans. They could give you Steen vs. Devitt for the WWE Title on RAW next week and this board would find ways to bitch about it. ...and they have that. They're just too snobby to acknowledge that not everyone has to fit into their cookie cutter idea of what a 'talented pro wrestler' is much like they bitch about Vince's cookie cutter idea of what a 'talented pro wrestler' is. Imagine that. Speaking of repetitive promos, remember that comment the next time you talk about Bray Wyatt being misused. People complain, yes. I complain when things I don't like happen. Ambrose getting a superman push and going over everyone to get the WWE title would not be one of them, he's one of about 4 favorites I have in this company and I want him to succeed and I don't care how he does it. I don't need him on top for 10 years, one world title, that's all I want. Cement his legacy as a top act than he can go upper mid card or occasional main event, a Jericho like career if you will. Devitt V Steen I'd complain about if Devitt lost lol. No, they have Randy Orton, Kane, John Cena and Brock Lesnar. No mic skills, (At least no one that wants to use them, and don't tell me any of them have a script, they can freeball it if they want too I'm sure) I just want someone new and fresh that can talk. I don't care if they can wrestle, I don't care if they are fat and ugly, I care if they can talk and keep me interested. Vince just wants a guy with a big body you can find at any Gold's Gym. Bray Wyatt doesn't pick his feuds, he works with what he can, not to mention the limits WWE probably put on his promos. Yes, I've heard he writes his own and gets it approved, but I still think they change it a lot. No way he would willingly spew the same garbage for every feud week in and week out. His vignettes for Harper tonight were quite good. Finally someone actually doesn't bitch and complain at me for my posts too, thank you. What I hate with Brock is that they guide his promos. Watch his stuff when he was mega heel in UFC or hell even his 2002-2003 run. He was great on the mic and didn't need his hand held. Orton can talk, too. It's just a problem of him being stuck in the role of the stoic killer character that he's been kind of put in since 2007 or so. Roman Reigns can cut a good promo for what he needs to do. He's not a guy you want cutting long promos. He's the spam destroyer dude. Plus, if they DID give him longer promos, they'd just Cena him out like they did with Sheamus, who is another guy who can talk but is limited by the material they give him. re: Bray - I don't think they'd change much about what he says. I think it's more that he has that one note he knows he hits with his promos and that's what he sticks to because he's comfortable telling that story. Nothing wrong with it, mind you. Hogan's been doing it for decades. EDIT: Benoit got a thank you reign, Eddie got over big, he should have been a multiple time champion, I'll give you that one, Edge said he was always well liked by Vince so he was never in any trouble. Although I believe Edge had WAY to many reigns, it was overkill, especially at the end. Damn you for pulling a me and editing while I was replying. Benoit's reign wasn't so much a 'thank you' reign. He hadn't really done anything in the WWE at that point to warrant a 'thank you' reign. I think he got the belt for the same reason Eddie did--dude was over as . Edge did have far too many reigns, much like Cena has.
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Post by rustyy on Sept 29, 2014 23:06:55 GMT -5
People complain, yes. I complain when things I don't like happen. Ambrose getting a superman push and going over everyone to get the WWE title would not be one of them, he's one of about 4 favorites I have in this company and I want him to succeed and I don't care how he does it. I don't need him on top for 10 years, one world title, that's all I want. Cement his legacy as a top act than he can go upper mid card or occasional main event, a Jericho like career if you will. Devitt V Steen I'd complain about if Devitt lost lol. No, they have Randy Orton, Kane, John Cena and Brock Lesnar. No mic skills, (At least no one that wants to use them, and don't tell me any of them have a script, they can freeball it if they want too I'm sure) I just want someone new and fresh that can talk. I don't care if they can wrestle, I don't care if they are fat and ugly, I care if they can talk and keep me interested. Vince just wants a guy with a big body you can find at any Gold's Gym. Bray Wyatt doesn't pick his feuds, he works with what he can, not to mention the limits WWE probably put on his promos. Yes, I've heard he writes his own and gets it approved, but I still think they change it a lot. No way he would willingly spew the same garbage for every feud week in and week out. His vignettes for Harper tonight were quite good. Finally someone actually doesn't bitch and complain at me for my posts too, thank you. What I hate with Brock is that they guide his promos. Watch his stuff when he was mega heel in UFC or hell even his 2002-2003 run. He was great on the mic and didn't need his hand held. Orton can talk, too. It's just a problem of him being stuck in the role of the stoic killer character that he's been kind of put in since 2007 or so. Roman Reigns can cut a good promo for what he needs to do. He's not a guy you want cutting long promos. He's the spam destroyer dude. Plus, if they DID give him longer promos, they'd just Cena him out like they did with Sheamus, who is another guy who can talk but is limited by the material they give him. re: Bray - I don't think they'd change much about what he says. I think it's more that he has that one note he knows he hits with his promos and that's what he sticks to because he's comfortable telling that story. Nothing wrong with it, mind you. Hogan's been doing it for decades. EDIT: Benoit got a thank you reign, Eddie got over big, he should have been a multiple time champion, I'll give you that one, Edge said he was always well liked by Vince so he was never in any trouble. Although I believe Edge had WAY to many reigns, it was overkill, especially at the end. Damn you for pulling a me and editing while I was replying. Benoit's reign wasn't so much a 'thank you' reign. He hadn't really done anything in the WWE at that point to warrant a 'thank you' reign. I think he got the belt for the same reason Eddie did--dude was over as . Edge did have far too many reigns, much like Cena has. The reason they guide Brock is because whenever he took a break from WWE he lost all of his promo ability, he has to swear to get a pop in his promos, but luckily he doesn't ever need to speak since he has Heyman. Orton as Legend Killer was gold, loved it but he should take a year off or at least a couple months, come back with some fresh material and stay the hell away from John Cena, forever. Roman, I've never really been impressed with, but he doesn't really have my style of promo either, he seems to me more like a Rock type of person, where he is going to go the comedy route but I prefer much more serious characters. I may be wrong though. Bray has so much potential, he could have easily been WWE champion sometime after Mania instead of John, had a competitive match where he lost to Lesnar and he would have been a made man, and if he had went over Cena at Mania, clean or not. As per usual, WWE ruined that by having Cena embarrass him and the whole family many times, a few weeks ago where he whooped all of them was the icing on the cake. I hope he comes back and goes on another dominant streak like he did earlier in the year. Another scenario would have been to have a program with Taker, and he breaks the streak and gets to go onto be WWE champ. Made man, super over and you've built a new top heel, instead we got a part time top heel that is never around. Meh, I feel like Benoit was never really treated like a main eventer, he was like Punk in that aspect. Eddie didn't hold the belt on the main show so I think that was best for him, he actually got to main event and not be micromanaged by Vince. If Edge had stayed as good as he was during the rated r days I'd have liked him a lot more, once he got with Vickie he just started to become so meh.
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Post by The Kevstaaa on Sept 30, 2014 10:45:30 GMT -5
I actually agree with most of your post. Key word: most. No, what people don't get is that Ambrose being booked like Superman would garner the same reaction from people than any other indie dude in the main event. People on here (and the internet by large) cheer and cheer for these guys to get pushed and then they bitch about how they're booked when they get there. If Ambrose beat everyone on the roster, people would bitch. If Ambrose loses to Rollins, people would bitch. There's no pleasing the internet fans. They could give you Steen vs. Devitt for the WWE Title on RAW next week and this board would find ways to bitch about it. ...and they have that. They're just too snobby to acknowledge that not everyone has to fit into their cookie cutter idea of what a 'talented pro wrestler' is much like they bitch about Vince's cookie cutter idea of what a 'talented pro wrestler' is. Imagine that. Speaking of repetitive promos, remember that comment the next time you talk about Bray Wyatt being misused. People complain, yes. I complain when things I don't like happen. Ambrose getting a superman push and going over everyone to get the WWE title would not be one of them, he's one of about 4 favorites I have in this company and I want him to succeed and I don't care how he does it. I don't need him on top for 10 years, one world title, that's all I want. Cement his legacy as a top act than he can go upper mid card or occasional main event, a Jericho like career if you will. Devitt V Steen I'd complain about if Devitt lost lol. No, they have Randy Orton, Kane, John Cena and Brock Lesnar. No mic skills, (At least no one that wants to use them, and don't tell me any of them have a script, they can freeball it if they want too I'm sure) I just want someone new and fresh that can talk. I don't care if they can wrestle, I don't care if they are fat and ugly, I care if they can talk and keep me interested. Vince just wants a guy with a big body you can find at any Gold's Gym. Bray Wyatt doesn't pick his feuds, he works with what he can, not to mention the limits WWE probably put on his promos. Yes, I've heard he writes his own and gets it approved, but I still think they change it a lot. No way he would willingly spew the same garbage for every feud week in and week out. His vignettes for Harper tonight were quite good. Finally someone actually doesn't bitch and complain at me for my posts too, thank you. EDIT: Benoit got a thank you reign, Eddie got over big, he should have been a multiple time champion, I'll give you that one, Edge said he was always well liked by Vince so he was never in any trouble. Although I believe Edge had WAY to many reigns, it was overkill, especially at the end. How come, when Cena repeats in his promos, it's because he's Cena, but when Bray does it, it's because the WWE changes it. Why is there NO WAY he would spew the same garbage every week, but Cena would? Also, I have to agree with @wakigatame. Bray's promos are super one note.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 11:06:01 GMT -5
There are obvious comparisons between Hogan & Cena. However I have been sidetracked by the constant bickering in this thread. There was an entire thread in the Lounge the other week moaning about how I "lock threads for nothing" and this is the exact type of thread that was referenced. There has been non stop bickering and pissing on opinions here.....but I wont lock it yet.
Either get back on track or I'm locking this one.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 12:08:53 GMT -5
Well to the actual topic of the thread
This is Hogan
This is Cena.
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Post by sitruC on Sept 30, 2014 12:23:20 GMT -5
Because people know it's scripted now so he is less credible.
And partly the losers who think "LULZ UNLEGIT HE TAKES STEROIDS!!!"
and wrestling is viewed negatively now.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 12:27:52 GMT -5
In late 91/92 Hogan was being booed too.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 13:07:26 GMT -5
In late 91/92 Hogan was being booed too. Which in fairness was the end of his run AF.......that started in 1984. Cena has been getting booed loudly & often since late 2005......4 months into his run on top....the boos have never really went away. IMO? You cant really compare the two. Cena has never had universal crowd support in a feud like Hogan had against Orndorff, Piper, Andre, Savage, Earthquake etc etc. Part of the issue has always been Cena's character and its a crucial difference between the two.....more specifically how they treated their opponents. I will use 2 examples I have often used in the past on this topic. Hogan NEVER laughed at his opponents or undersold their threat towards him. ME feuds with Hogan were always incredibly serious business. The Andre & The Mega Powers angles would NEVER have worked in the way they did without Hogan selling their betrayal like his family had just run off with all his money...... and murdered then ate their family dog. He made them work with his spot on crowd manipulation and timing with interviews promos/segments. Now onto Cena. Miz eliminated him from the 2011 Royal Rumble in unfair circumstances......The WWE championship 7 the RTWM was ALL Cena could talk about before the RR. yet after Miz committed this atrocity Cena comes to the ring, not to pounce on him but to share a joke with him......in this same segment he also totally gave away the result of the EC.....If he didn't care about the EC or Miz why should we? vs Miz & Truth was another nightmare. Why did Cena need the Rock? He was able for both men on his own and treated them like just another duo...... I could go on & on.
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Post by The Kevstaaa on Sept 30, 2014 13:47:14 GMT -5
How come, when Cena repeats in his promos, it's because he's Cena, but when Bray does it, it's because the WWE changes it. Why is there NO WAY he would spew the same garbage every week, but Cena would? Also, I have to agree with @wakigatame. Bray's promos are super one note. Hm, lets see, probably because Cena has been the main face for 10 years and can more than likely do whatever he wants and pick and choose his feuds and how he acts in them, and Bray Wyatt is new and has creative/Vince choose who/why he feuds with someone. Bray's promos before he faced that cancer known as John Cena were amazing, after/during their feud it sucked because he looked like a fool constantly failing to turn Cena or do anything of value. Don't even say Cena put him over either because that cage match was the worst booking I've ever seen, and the week after getting wrecked by Lesnar he basically beat all 3 at once. Oh, I'm with you on the Cena feud killing Bray's momentum. However, I'm of the opinion that his promos were overrated even from the start. I appreciated that he was different and interesting, but it was one note, kind of rambled and never seemed to have much direction. To each their own though.
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Post by BrIaNMeRcY on Sept 30, 2014 16:20:46 GMT -5
Bear with me, this is going to be one of the most factual posts in this thread.
Back in 1984, Vince McMahon needed to right guy to launch his national expansion. Hulk Hogan just happened to be in the right place and time. Hogan was designed to look strong and be the face of the company. What helped was Hogan was not over-exposed. If you wanted to see him, you either had to watch the PPV's, go to the A house shows, and watch him on Saturday Nights Main Event. Hgan was one of the special attraction champions which made being the champion a bigger deal. One of the positives about Hogan is he made most of his opponents look like a legit threat to him and/or the champion. One of the reasons why Hogan/Andre drew the way it did was the build and Andre was made to be a credible threat to Hogan. Fast forward to WrestleMania V, when Randy Savage jumped Hogan on The Man Event II, people wanted to see Hogan get his revenge on Savage.
Then came SummerSlam 1990. People paid to see Hogan get his revenge on earthquake. Earthquake too, was made to be a credible threat to Hogan. Hogan made his opponents look like a threat in his promos. The way angles played out back then usually saw a big payoff. Many of Hogan's matches has a pay off to it. Hogan re-capturing the WWF Championship at WrestleMania V, getting back at Earthquake at SummerSlam '90, and slamming Andre at WrestleMania III. Hogan's opponents were made to look like a legit threat, Hogan took that threat to heart, and later have that pay off people wanted to see.
Now with John Cena, most of his opponents weren't made to be a legit threat to him and the championship. All of that hokey, smiling nonsense Cena usually does hurts the potential pay off in the end. The way to really book programs is the heel has to be a credible threat to the face, the face has to take it seriously, the face gets the upper hand, and the fans go home happy. It is such a simple formula to follow. Another thing that hurts Cena's appeal is the older fans got too sensitized to seeing an anti-hero be dominant and defy the odds. This is where the Attitude Era and Steve Austin hurts how main eventers in the future are potentially booked. Us long time fans got too accustomed to seeing the face acting all bad ass, defying the authority, and drinking beer. Cena isn't about all that. Cena is all about being a white meat, clean face that allowed the WWE to go back to their roots. With no rules needed to be broken, it is hard to be a credible heel these days.
You can't really compare John Cena to Hulk Hogan at all. People can bicker all they want but remember, you are making an ass out of yourself and not really looking deep into history and see what works and what doesn't.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 22:44:11 GMT -5
Cena is not on Hogan's level. Nobody is. And this is evident by the fact that since the 80s there have been many such comparisons.
Hogan - Flair Hogan - Warrior Hogan - Brett Hogan - HBK Hogan - Sting Hogan - Austin Hogan - Rock Hogan - Cena
Who ever is the big star at the moment is compared to Hogan and arguments are made why he is better. Then time passes. New guy takes over, and is once again compared to Hogan. There is a common denominator in all these comparisons. Hogan doesn't have to defend his status as the best ever, all the haters that compare him to the current star do it for him, decade after decade.
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Post by hulkhogancollector on Oct 3, 2014 18:14:10 GMT -5
Cena is not on Hogan's level. Nobody is. And this is evident by the fact that since the 80s there have been many such comparisons. Hogan - Flair Hogan - Warrior Hogan - Brett Hogan - HBK Hogan - Sting Hogan - Austin Hogan - Rock Hogan - Cena Who ever is the big star at the moment is compared to Hogan and arguments are made why he is better. Then time passes. New guy takes over, and is once again compared to Hogan. There is a common denominator in all these comparisons. Hogan doesn't have to defend his status as the best ever, all the haters that compare him to the current star do it for him, decade after decade. The voice of reason well said.
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jakksking1
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Post by jakksking1 on Oct 4, 2014 0:27:35 GMT -5
Also, how many matches did Hogan have on TV every year during the 80s and early 90s? 10 or 15 maybe? When your main guy wrestles once every 3 weeks, its a little different than him being involved in 2-3 segments every week and wrestling the same guy every week and every PPV. Over saturation plays a big role in peoples general dislike of Cena, besides the other reasons mentioned. Had Hogan been on TV as often as Cena is during 87 or 88, he would probably have been booed too earlier than he was.
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