Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2009 12:17:22 GMT -5
Same goes for cena. People don't have to like the Hulkster but for Christ sakes show the man some respect. He helped propel the business that we love today. No one needs to show Old Leather Butt any respect. He didn't propel the biz, Vinny Mac did. McMahon took a lumbering, balding bodybuilder with minimal athletic ability and convinced the world that Hogan was something special. That is true genius on Vince's part. Old Leather Butt was just in the right place at the right time. Why anyone would want to buy yet another Hogan DVD, when his matches were among the most homogenized ever, is beyond me. You can't be serious? The fact is that Hulk Hogan can have a good match with almost anyone. Theres very few wrestlers that can do it. Bret can also do it.
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sevb30
Main Eventer
Joined on: Apr 14, 2008 12:55:21 GMT -5
Posts: 1,378
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Post by sevb30 on Aug 14, 2009 12:18:40 GMT -5
He also had a good more-scientific match with Stan Hansen in Japan in 1990. He had no need for that style much in the states because what he did was so over with most people. I don't appreciate the tone from antivenom. Saying condescending, insulting things like "Just because a bunch of marks bought the facade doesn't mean Hogan holds up to scrutiny." Similar has been made to me in the past about the whole of pro wrestling in general. There goes that word again "Mark". The word that is used to stab or be the ultimate putdown for a person who believes wrestling is totally legit or just a big fan of pro wrestling. It's just your OPINION, you are one person, and your OPINION does not make a "FACT" over anyone elses. Hell yes I bought the "facade" just as anyone buys the "facade" of any wrestler. Just as I admire the skill of some actors with limited ranges. Just because someone has limited whatever it is, doesn't mean they can't be liked. IN pro wrestling charisma has more going for it than all out skills for that matter anyway. So the next time Hogan shows up in an arena and gets a standing ovation the loudest of the night, oh "that's just a bunch of marks who bought the facade." And you are a MARK as well, pretty much everyone in here is.
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Post by layton on Aug 14, 2009 12:19:05 GMT -5
Here's what that tells me: Hogan only gave as much as he had to. That doesn't exactly speak volumes for him, if he actually did have wrestling skills that he just did showcase because he thought three sorry moves were "sufficient" for the US. Aside from that, I am not impressed by the two STFs Hogan used or anything. That video is a very young Hogan before he turned into what he is today. I am not naive and ignorant. People that believe Hogan is one of the greatest wrestlers of all time are. I didn't post the rest of the match, it's in five parts. I assure you, there's a bit more than STFs going on. I really don't think Inoki would even bother with Hogan if he couldn't work at all. Hogan being "one of the greatest wrestlers of all time" isn't being contested here. The fact that Hogan could display an amount of managable wrestling ability, on top of being an amazing personality/showman, is what it's about here. That and the absurdity of calling the most recognizable pro wrestler in history "talentless". Notice, I didn't call you ignorant and naive. Nor did I say you called him one of the greatest of all time. I was simply speaking about those that did. In that one match, I am sure he displayed something close to skill, and I have already admitted that he can draw. As far as me respecting him or attributing wrestling's mainstream success largely to him, I will not do it. Talentless was an overstatement. By talentless, I meant that for the amount of praise that he gets and for the amount of fans he had, his wrestling ability is minute.
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Post by Patrick Bateman on Aug 14, 2009 12:23:31 GMT -5
I didn't post the rest of the match, it's in five parts. I assure you, there's a bit more than STFs going on. I really don't think Inoki would even bother with Hogan if he couldn't work at all. Hogan being "one of the greatest wrestlers of all time" isn't being contested here. The fact that Hogan could display an amount of managable wrestling ability, on top of being an amazing personality/showman, is what it's about here. That and the absurdity of calling the most recognizable pro wrestler in history "talentless". Notice, I didn't call you ignorant and naive. Nor did I say you called him one of the greatest of all time. I was simply speaking about those that did. In that one match, I am sure he displayed something close to skill, and I have already admitted that he can draw. As far as me respecting him or attributing wrestling's mainstream success largely to him, I will not do it. Talentless was an overstatement. By talentless, I meant that for the amount of praise that he gets and for the amount of fans he had, his wrestling ability is minute. I see what you mean. I didn't personally mean to label you "naive" or "ignorant", rather I was targeting the thought process and the general assumption that Hogan couldn't wrestle. You wouldn't be the first to call Hogan talentless, I'm sure there's a line-up behind you. I just felt I should try and post a match to show that when Hogan really wanted to, he could work. This continued even up until '93-'94 when Hogan went back to Japan to wrestle the Great Muta: His wrestling ability is minute, certainly to the standards of pro wrestling in the United States anyways, but it was there. He also had a good more-scientific match with Stan Hansen in Japan in 1990. He had no need for that style much in the states because what he did was so over with most people. Spot-on, that's what I tried to get across. He didn't have to work that style because the basic Hulk Hogan formula was already a massive success in the 'States. The fact is that Hulk Hogan can have a good match with almost anyone. I respectfully disagree with this though.
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Post by layton on Aug 14, 2009 12:27:31 GMT -5
Notice, I didn't call you ignorant and naive. Nor did I say you called him one of the greatest of all time. I was simply speaking about those that did. In that one match, I am sure he displayed something close to skill, and I have already admitted that he can draw. As far as me respecting him or attributing wrestling's mainstream success largely to him, I will not do it. Talentless was an overstatement. By talentless, I meant that for the amount of praise that he gets and for the amount of fans he had, his wrestling ability is minute. I see what you mean. I didn't personally mean to label you "naive" or "ignorant", rather I was targeting the thought process. You wouldn't be the first to call Hogan talentless, I'm sure there's a line-up behind you. I just felt I should try and post a match to show that when Hogan really wanted to, he could work. This continued even up until '93-'94 when Hogan went back to Japan to wrestle the Great Muta: His wrestling ability is minute, certainly to the standards of pro wrestling in the United States anyways, but it was there. I understand. He probably could have worked if he wanted to. My problem isn't 80s Hogan. People loved him and he was over. I am not going to argue with that. He's tarnished everything he had in the last 10-15 years, though. And when I think Hogan, I don't think about the guy in Japan with Inoki. I think about the guy rubbing lotion on his daughter's butt and hosting celebrity wrestling, and I hate him and don't have any kind of respect for him.
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Post by layton on Aug 14, 2009 12:29:24 GMT -5
No one needs to show Old Leather Butt any respect. He didn't propel the biz, Vinny Mac did. McMahon took a lumbering, balding bodybuilder with minimal athletic ability and convinced the world that Hogan was something special. That is true genius on Vince's part. Old Leather Butt was just in the right place at the right time. Why anyone would want to buy yet another Hogan DVD, when his matches were among the most homogenized ever, is beyond me. You can't be serious? The fact is that Hulk Hogan can have a good match with almost anyone. Theres very few wrestlers that can do it. Bret can also do it. Hogan cannot have a good match with almost anyone. That is barely a valid opinion, much less fact.
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Post by Emerald Enthusiast on Aug 14, 2009 12:38:44 GMT -5
No one needs to show Old Leather Butt any respect. He didn't propel the biz, Vinny Mac did. McMahon took a lumbering, balding bodybuilder with minimal athletic ability and convinced the world that Hogan was something special. That is true genius on Vince's part. Old Leather Butt was just in the right place at the right time. Why anyone would want to buy yet another Hogan DVD, when his matches were among the most homogenized ever, is beyond me. You can't be serious? The fact is that Hulk Hogan can have a good match with almost anyone. Theres very few wrestlers that can do it. Bret can also do it. It's common knowledge in the wrestling business that Hogan couldn't work. Even Stephanie McMahon publicly stated that Hogan's in-ring work was extremely limited. I can't believe that anyone would actually believe that Hogan could have a good match with anyone. LOL!!! Hogan has maybe 10 acceptable matches in his career and those were usually the result of guys like Savage and Flair carrying Hogan. Hogan was always a steaming pile of fecal matter once the bell rang.
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Post by Emerald Enthusiast on Aug 14, 2009 12:43:20 GMT -5
He also had a good more-scientific match with Stan Hansen in Japan in 1990. He had no need for that style much in the states because what he did was so over with most people. I don't appreciate the tone from antivenom. Saying condescending, insulting things like "Just because a bunch of marks bought the facade doesn't mean Hogan holds up to scrutiny." Similar has been made to me in the past about the whole of pro wrestling in general. There goes that word again "Mark". The word that is used to stab or be the ultimate putdown for a person who believes wrestling is totally legit or just a big fan of pro wrestling. It's just your OPINION, you are one person, and your OPINION does not make a "FACT" over anyone elses. He ll yes I bought the "facade" just as anyone buys the "facade" of any wrestler. . Not all wrestlers are facades. Guys who actually work hard and do innovative things in the ring are deserving of their popularity. Wrestlers who got over based on nothing but character ( Hogan, Warrior, Sid) are facades. However, if people want to pay money to watch Hogan punch, clothesline, and no-sell over and over and over and over and over and over and over, then so be it.
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Post by Patrick Bateman on Aug 14, 2009 12:55:03 GMT -5
He also had a good more-scientific match with Stan Hansen in Japan in 1990. He had no need for that style much in the states because what he did was so over with most people. I don't appreciate the tone from antivenom. Saying condescending, insulting things like "Just because a bunch of marks bought the facade doesn't mean Hogan holds up to scrutiny." Similar has been made to me in the past about the whole of pro wrestling in general. There goes that word again "Mark". The word that is used to stab or be the ultimate putdown for a person who believes wrestling is totally legit or just a big fan of pro wrestling. It's just your OPINION, you are one person, and your OPINION does not make a "FACT" over anyone elses. He ll yes I bought the "facade" just as anyone buys the "facade" of any wrestler. . Not all wrestlers are facades. Guys who actually work hard and do innovative things in the ring are deserving of their popularity. Wrestlers who got over based on nothing but character ( Hogan, Warrior, Sid) are facades. However, if people want to pay money to watch Hogan punch, clothesline, and no-sell over and over and over and over and over and over and over, then so be it. Funny that somehow two "facades" (Hogan and the Warrior) managed to have a classic match and one of the greatest WrestleMania main event showdowns, at that.
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sevb30
Main Eventer
Joined on: Apr 14, 2008 12:55:21 GMT -5
Posts: 1,378
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Post by sevb30 on Aug 14, 2009 16:14:54 GMT -5
[ However, if people want to pay money to watch Hogan punch, clothesline, and no-sell over and over and over and over and over and over and over, then so be it.[/quote]
And people did, and still do if it was Hogan. It's not all about what you or I want, it's what the people at large want. All wrestlers are facades, some more than others, but we have no way of knowing how any of them would do in the UFC or something like that unless they joined the UFC.
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sevb30
Main Eventer
Joined on: Apr 14, 2008 12:55:21 GMT -5
Posts: 1,378
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Post by sevb30 on Aug 14, 2009 16:18:41 GMT -5
Nobody is arguing that Hogan was the most skilled wrestler, that's a strawman. The whole point is he didn't NEED to be, especially in North America. Everyone watches wrestling for different reasons, if I wanted scientific alone wrestling I'd watch collegiate. But the entertainment value of collegiate sucks to me, but that's just my opinion, no fault to anyone who thinks otherwise. It's like faulting someone for liking a different color or food than you.
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Post by Patrick Bateman on Aug 15, 2009 12:27:21 GMT -5
Nobody is arguing that Hogan was the most skilled wrestler, that's a strawman. The whole point is he didn't NEED to be, especially in North America. Everyone watches wrestling for different reasons, if I wanted scientific alone wrestling I'd watch collegiate. But the entertainment value of collegiate sucks to me, but that's just my opinion, no fault to anyone who thinks otherwise. It's like faulting someone for liking a different color or food than you. Well put. But anti-venom's a chronic Hulk Hogan hater, he's been hating Hogan so long that he'll get Hulk Hogan cancer from it. There's no convincing him.
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